Printable Version of Topic -HR Tolkien Board +--Forum: Knjige J.R.R. Tolkiena +---Topic: Komentari prijevoda membera started by Meneldil Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 02:10 PM Ukratko - iskreni, prijateljski i suvisli. Neukratkije - budite iskreni jer prešucivanje grešaka, iako možda u dobroj namjeri, nece nikome koristiti; unatoč svoj iskrenosti nemojte osobno napadati membera koji je prijevod stavio; ne možete komentirati nešto ako prvo niste dobro razmislili i dobro provjerili ono što komentirate. I to je sve :P Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 02:17 PM Da bih vam olakšao sustavni napad na moj prijevod evo i original :yes: At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought-transmission (sanwe-latya "thought-opening"), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order). Men are not specially considered, except in so far as they are included in general statements about the Incarnates (Mirröanwi). Of them Pengolodh says only: "Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will". Pengolodh includes this matter primarily owing to its connexion with tengwesta. But he is also concerned as an historian to examine the relations of Melkor and his agents with the Valar and the Eruhíni, though this also has a connexion with "language", since, as he points out, this, the greatest of the talents of the Mirröanwi, has been turned by Melkor to his own greatest advantage. Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance. "Openness" is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged (Note 2). In "Arda Unmarred" (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into "privacy" (aquapahtie). Though in "Arda Unmarred" openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill (Note 3). All these things, says Pengolodh, are true of all minds, from the Ainur in the presence of Eru, or the great Valar such as Manwe and Melkor, to the Maiar in Eä, and down to the least of the Mirröanwi. But different states bring in limitations, which are not fully controlled by the will. The Valar entered into Eä and Time of free will, and they are now in Time, so long as it endures. They can perceive nothing outside Time, save by memory of their existence before it began: they can recall the Song and the Vision. They are, of course, open to Eru, but they cannot of their own will "see" any part of His mind. They can open themselves to Eru in entreaty, and He may then reveal His thought to them (Note 4). The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hröa, for their fëa is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority. Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa. Urgency is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others. These causes may strengthen the thought to pass the veils and reach a recipient mind. But that mind must remain open, and at the least passive. If, being aware that it is addressed, it then closes, no urgency or affinity will enable the sender's thought to enter. Lastly, tengwesta has also become an impediment. It is in Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought. By it also they can communicate easily with others, when no strength is added to their thought: as, for example, when strangers first meet. And, as we have seen, the use of "language" soon becomes habitual, so that the practice of ósanwe (interchange of thought) is neglected and becomes more difficult. Thus we see that the Incarnate tend more and more to use or to endeavour to use ósanwe only in great need and urgency, and especially when lambe is unavailing. As when the voice cannot be heard, which comes most often because of distance. For distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe. But those who by affinity might well use ósanwe will use lambe when in proximity, by habit or preference. Yet we may mark also how the "affine" may more quickly understand the lambe that they use between them, and indeed all that they would say is not put into words. With fewer words they come swifter to a better understanding. There can be no doubt that here ósanwe is also often taking place; for the will to converse in lambe is a will to communicate thought, and lays the minds open. It may be, of course, that the two that converse know already part of the matter and the thought of the other upon it, so that only allusions dark to the stranger need be made; but this is not always so. The affine will reach an understanding more swiftly than strangers upon matters that neither have before discussed, and they will more quickly perceive the import of words that, however numerous, well-chosen, and precise, must remain inadequate. The hröa and tengwesta have inevitably some like effect upon the Valar, if they assume bodily raiment. The hröa will to some degree dim in force and precision the sending of the thought, and if the other be also embodied the reception of it. If they have acquired the habit of tengwesta, as some may who have acquired the custom of being arrayed, then this will reduce the practice of ósanwe. But these effects are far less than in the case of the Incarnate. For the hröa of a Vala, even when it has become customary, is far more under the control of the will. The thought of the Valar is far stronger and more penetrant. And so far as concerns their dealings one with another, the affinity between the Valar is greater than the affinity between any other beings; so that the use of tengwesta or lambe has never become imperative, and only with some has it become a custom and preference. And as for their dealings with all other minds in Eä, their thought often has the highest authority, and the greatest urgency. (Note 5) Pengolodh then proceeds to the abuses of sanwe. "For" he says, "some who have read so far, may already have questioned my lore, saying: This seems not to accord with the histories. If the sáma were inviolable by force, how could Melkor have deceived so many minds and enslaved so many? Or is it not rather true that the sáma may be protected by greater strength but captured also by greater strength? Wherefore Melkor, the greatest, and even to the last possessing the most fixed, determined and ruthless will, could penetrate the minds of the Valar, but withhold himself from them, so that even Manwe in dealing with him may seem to us at times feeble, unwary, and deceived. Is this not so?' "I say that it is not so. Things may seem alike, but if they are in kind wholly different they must be distinguished. Foresight which is prevision, and forecasting which is opinion made by reasoning upon present evidence, may be identical in their prediction, but they are wholly different in mode, and they should be distinguished by loremasters, even if the daily language of both Elves and Men gives them the same name as departments of wisdom". (Note 6) In like manner, extortion of the secrets of a mind may seem to come from reading it by force in despite of its unwill, for the knowledge gained may at times appear to be as complete as any that could be obtained. Nonetheless it does not come from penetration of the barrier of unwill. There is indeed no axan that the barrier should not be forced, for it is únat, a thing impossible to be or to be done, and the greater the force exerted, the greater the resistance of the unwill. But it is an axan universal that none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own. Melkor repudiated all axani. He would also abolish (for himself) all únati if he could. Indeed in his beginning and the days of his great might the most ruinous of his violences came from his endeavour so to order Eä that there were no limits or obstacles to his will. But this he could not do. The únati remained, a perpetual reminder of the existence of Eru and His invincibility, a reminder also of the co-existence with himself of other beings (equal in descent if not in power) impregnable by force. From this proceeds his unceasing and unappeasable rage. He found that the open approach of a sáma of power and great force of will was felt by a lesser sáma as an immense pressure, accompanied by fear. To dominate by weight of power and fear was his delight; but in this case he found them unavailing: fear closed the door faster. Therefore he tried deceit and stealth. Here he was aided by the simplicity of those unaware of evil, or not yet accustomed to beware of it. And for that reason it was said above that the distinction of openness and active will to entertain was of great importance. For he would come by stealth to a mind open and unwary, hoping to learn some part of its thought before it closed, and still more to implant in it his own thought, to deceive it and win it to his friendship. His thought was ever the same, though varied to suit each case (so far as he understood it): he was above all benevolent; he was rich and could give any gift that they desired to his friends; he had a special love for the one that he addressed; but he must be trusted. In this way he won entry into many minds, removing their unwill, and unlocking the door by the only key, though his key was counterfeit. Yet this was not what he most desired, the conquest of the recalcitrant, the enslavement of his enemies. Those who listened and did not close the door were too often already inclined to his friendship; some (according to their measure) had already entered on paths like his own, and listened because they hoped to learn and receive from him things that would further their own purposes. (So it was with those of the Maiar who first and earliest fell under his domination. They were already rebels, but lacking Melkor's power and ruthless will they admired him, and saw in his leadership hope of effective rebellion.) But those who were yet simple and uncorrupted in "heart" (Note 7) were at once aware of his entry, and if they listened to the warning of their hearts, ceased to listen, ejected him, and closed the door. It was such as these that Melkor most desired to overcome: his enemies, for to him all were enemies who resisted him in the least thing or claimed anything whatsoever as their own and not his. Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. And this weapon he found in "language". For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru's despite. Their bodies being of Eä are subject to force; and their spirits, being united to their bodies in love and solicitude, are subject to fear on their behalf. And their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body: it is not the sáma nor its sanwe, but it may express the sanwe in its mode and according to its capacity. Upon the body and upon the indweller, therefore, such pressure and such fear may be exerted that the incarnate person may be forced to speak. So Melkor thought in the darkness of his forethought long ere we awoke. For in days of old, when the Valar instructed the Eldar new-come to Aman concerning the beginning of things and the enmity of Melkor, Manwe himself said to those who would listen: "Of the Children of Eru Melkor knew less than his peers, giving less heed to what he might have learned, as we did, in the Vision of their Coming. Yet, as we now fear since we know you in your true being, to everything that might aid his designs for mastery his mind was keen to attend, and his purpose leaped forward swifter than ours, being bound by no axan. From the first he was greatly interested in "language", that talent that the Eruhíni would have by nature; but we did not at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it, and Aule above all. But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you should speak with him beware!" "Alas!" says Pengolodh, "in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters". Thus by deceit, by lies, by torment of the body and the spirit, by the threat of torment to others well loved, or by the sheer terror of his presence, Melkor ever sought to force the Incarnate that fell into his power, or came within his reach, to speak and to tell him all that he would know. But his own Lie begot an endless progeny of lies. By this means he has destroyed many, he has caused treacheries untold, and he has gained knowledge of secrets to his great advantage and the undoing of his enemies. But this is not by entering the mind, or by reading it as it is, in its despite. Nay, for great though the knowledge that he gained, behind the words (even of those in fear and torment) dwells ever the sáma inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed from it (as cries from behind a locked door); they must be judged and assessed for what truth may be in them. Therefore, the Liar says that all words are lies: all things that he hears are threaded through with deceit, with evasions, hidden meanings, and hate. In this vast network he himself enmeshed struggles and rages, gnawed by suspicion, doubt, and fear. Not so would it have been, if he could have broken the barrier, and seen the heart as it is in its truth unveiled. If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever. How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured. Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise. (Note 8) The force and restraint that were used upon Melkor by the united power of all the Valar, were not used to extort confession (which was needless); nor to compel him to reveal his thought (which was unlawful, even if not vain). He was made captive as a punishment for his evil deeds, under the authority of the King. So we may say; but it were better said that he was deprived for a term, fixed by promise, of his power to act, so that he might halt and consider himself, and have thus the only chance that mercy could contrive of repentance and amendment. For the healing of Arda indeed, but for his own healing also. Melkor had the right to exist, and the right to act and use his powers. Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the Eruhíni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part. The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free. Therefore not until the last, and not then except by the express command of Eru and by His power, was Melkor thrown utterly down and deprived for ever of all power to do or to undo. Who among the Eldar hold that the captivity of Melkor in Mandos (which was achieved by force) was either unwise or unlawful? Yet the resolve to assault Melkor, not merely to withstand him, to meet violence with wrath to the peril of Arda, was taken by Manwe only with reluctance. And consider: what good in this case did even the lawful use of force accomplish? It removed him for a while and relieved Middle-earth from the pressure of his malice, but it did not uproot his evil, for it could not do so. Unless, maybe, Melkor had indeed repented. (Note 9) But he did not repent, and in humiliation he became more obdurate: more subtle in his deceits, more cunning in his lies, crueller and more dastardly in his revenge. The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor. Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough. Author's Notes to the Ósanwe-kenta Note 1 Here níra ("will" as a potential or faculty) since the minimum requirement is that this faculty shall not be exerted in denial; action or an act of will is nirme; as sanwe "Thought" or "a thought" is the action or an act of sáma. Note 2 It may be occupied with thinking and inattentive to other things; it may be "turned towards Eru"; it may be engaged in "thought-converse" with a third mind. Pengolodh says: "Only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive". Note 3 "No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it". Note 4 Pengolodh adds: "Some say that Manwe, by a special grace to the King, could still in a measure perceive Eru; others more probably, that he remained nearest to Eru, and Eru was most ready to hear and answer him". Note 5 Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving. "We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched. 'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.) Note 6 Pengolodh here elaborates (though it is not necessary for his argument) this matter of "foresight". No mind, he asserts, knows what is not in it. All that it has experienced is in it, though in the case of the Incarnate, dependent upon the instruments of the hröa, some things may be "forgotten", not immediately available for recollection. But no part of the "future" is there, for the mind cannot see it or have seen it: that is, a mind placed in time. Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä). An Incarnate can thus only know anything of the future, by instruction derived from the Valar, or by a revelation coming direct from Eru. But any mind, whether of the Valar or of the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass. This is not foresight, not though it may be clearer in terms and indeed even more accurate than glimpses of foresight. Not even if it is formed into visions seen in dream, which is a means whereby "foresight" also is frequently presented to the mind. Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called "foresight" in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be "foresight" at second hand. Note 7 enda. This we translate "heart", though it has no physical reference to any organ of the hröa. It means "centre", and refers (though by inevitable physical allegory) to the fëa or sáma itself, distinct from the periphery (as it were) of its contacts with the hröa; self-aware; endowed with the primeval wisdom of its making which made it sensitive to anything inimical in the least degree. Note 8 For which reason Melkor often spoke the truth, and indeed he seldom lied without any admixture of truth. Unless it was in his lies against Eru; and it was, maybe, for uttering these that he was cut off from return. Note 9 Some hold that, though evil might then have been mitigated, it could not have been undone even by Melkor repentant; for power had gone forth from him and was no longer under the control of his will. Arda was marred in its very being. The seeds that the hand sows will grow and multiply though the hand be removed. Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 11 2005, 02:18 PM Nemam nista suvislo za reci :blink: :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink: Osim da bih te podsjetio da ona ponuda da te usvojim jos stoji...:girl: Mozes li nam ukratko izloziti svoje daljnje planove, te projekte koje ces zapoceti? :klap: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 02:23 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Nemam nista suvislo za reci :blink: :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink: Osim da bih te podsjetio da ona ponuda da te usvojim jos stoji...:girl: Mozes li nam ukratko izloziti svoje daljnje planove, te projekte koje ces zapoceti? :klap: ----------------------------- Već sam mislio da će evil Balrog odjednom nalistati tisucu grešaka koje su mu "promakle" :roflmao: Dogovori se s Elrosom :a_ne: Ma naravno, nakon ovog, nimalo zamornog, projekta krecem prevoditi HOME na hrvatski, Silmarillion na Quenyu, LOTR na Sindarinski i UT na Ruski, samo se strpite :blink: Posted by: Anya Sep 11 2005, 02:27 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Ovaj :unsure: Samo da napomenem kako sam ja daleko od jedinog, i daleko od najboljega poznavaoca Quenye, rekao bih da je i naš Rainalcar bolji :unsure: i tako... :unsure: Ništa vrijedno divljenja... :unsure: :blush: ----------------------------- O da, jako vrijedno divljenja :veliki: :wub: :hug: ----Prebaceno iz Brblja na Balrogov prijedlog---- Ps. novi text u sigu :D Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 11 2005, 02:27 PM Nisam mislio na Elrosa nego na tvoje RL roditelje... :eureka: Ok, dogovoreno, prvi projekt HOME na hrvatski, mi zadovoljni... :yes: :klap: Posted by: arien Sep 11 2005, 02:29 PM :nosila: Meneldil :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: svaka cast :nosila: to je jedino sto mogu reci... :nosila: a zasto ne UT na Grcki? :girl: pocet ces dobivati :veliki: zahtjeve za prijevode :veliki: :lukavi: btw. a sto je s onim tekstovima od elronda i Ercha, nznam da su prevodili nesto u silnu, a i mislim da imam dio spremljen na kompu, pa... :girl: to isto trpamo ovdje? :girl: i ima li tko zivaca traziti gdje smo sve stavljali prijevode ili to ostaje zaboravljeno dok netko drugi to ne prevede? :unsure: :nosila: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 02:29 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Nisam mislio na Elrosa nego na tvoje RL roditelje... :eureka: Ok, dogovoreno, prvi projekt HOME na hrvatski, mi zadovoljni... :yes: :klap: ----------------------------- Ne znam, dam ti njihov broj pa se ti dogovaraj :unsure: :yes: Završetak se ocekuje sredinom rujna 3783 :klap: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 02:31 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- a zasto ne UT na Grcki? :girl: pocet ces dobivati :veliki: zahtjeve za prijevode :veliki: :lukavi: btw. a sto je s onim tekstovima od elronda i Ercha, nznam da su prevodili nesto u silnu, a i mislim da imam dio spremljen na kompu, pa... :girl: to isto trpamo ovdje? :girl: i ima li tko zivaca traziti gdje smo sve stavljali prijevode ili to ostaje zaboravljeno dok netko drugi to ne prevede? :unsure: :nosila: ----------------------------- Ne spominji to :mellow: :mellow: Od njih željno ocekujemo da stave svoje prijevode (IMAGE: http://web.gay.hr/smilies/raspa.gif) :D Posted by: Ellin Sep 11 2005, 04:50 PM :blink: :shocking: Meneldil :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: Svaka cast... :wub: Posted by: Morgoth Bauglir Sep 11 2005, 05:37 PM :shocking: Ovo je veličanstveno djelo - jedan od zrelijih prijevoda koji samuopće ikada vidio i onakav kakav je trebao biti preveden i LoTR - sa ljubavlju poštovanjem strpljenjem i znanjem Meneldile nadam se da je ovo prvi od mnogih :notworthy: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 11 2005, 05:38 PM Back off Kmico.... :angry: Shiny Vanya is mine :a_ne: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 05:39 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Meneldile nadam se da je ovo prvi od mnogih :notworthy: ----------------------------- Ofkors, Silmarillion, Quenya edition se ocekuje već sljedecih dana :mellow: Hvala vam :veliki: :veliki: :veliki: svima :yes: :hug: :hug: :hug: Posted by: Morgoth Bauglir Sep 11 2005, 05:41 PM Ozbiljno sam mislio ali budimo realni - Lettersi ne bi trebali biti toliko komplicirani pogotovo ako budeš imao neku pomoć ili slično :unsure: Posted by: Ellin Sep 11 2005, 05:42 PM Ti si citao letterse, morgy? :unsure: Posted by: Morgoth Bauglir Sep 11 2005, 05:45 PM Započeo i obeshrabrio se pa počeo iz sredine pa stao pa tako nekoliko puta :mellow: Može on to sigurno :yes: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 11 2005, 05:47 PM Moze, moze, naravno da moze... i hoce...:klap: :kissplus: :kissplus: Kad ga zakonski usvojim ispisat cu ga iz skole, to ga samo zatupljuje... :unsure: Posted by: Ellin Sep 11 2005, 05:47 PM Ja ih nisam citala, i nikad nisam ni imala priliku prelistati ih. A u cemu je stvar? Jesu komplicirani za prijevod, i koliko je to dugacko? :unsure: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 05:48 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Može on to sigurno :yes: ----------------------------- Mislim da su lettersi jednostavniji tekst pa bih mogao, a mogli bi i mnogi drugi ovdje :yes: Ali kad bih preuzeo nešto tako dugacko kao obavezu, a ne rad iz užitka ili bi opala kvaliteta (ako je uopce ima... :P) ili ne bi nikada dovršio :nemanpojma: Posted by: Morgoth Bauglir Sep 11 2005, 05:51 PM Moj engleski procjenjuje Letterse kao nešto komplicirano pa onda znaš kakav je Ne smatraš Letterse dovoljno kvalitetnim ili važnim za prijevod? :puzzled: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 05:54 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Ne smatraš Letterse dovoljno kvalitetnim ili važnim za prijevod? :puzzled: ----------------------------- Smatram ih predugackima :yes: Možda stavim neke važnije, ali prvo bih ih sve morao procitati :luuuud: :P I da vas se sada pokušam riješiti, prevodim novi tekst :luuuud: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 11 2005, 05:56 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Smatram ih predugackima :yes: Možda stavim neke važnije, ali prvo bih ih sve morao procitati :luuuud: :P I da vas se sada pokušam riješiti, prevodim novi tekst :luuuud: ----------------------------- Koji, preciousss? :girl: Pa znas da bi ti svi pomogli, ne bi sam prevodio...:girl: Posted by: arien Sep 11 2005, 05:56 PM koji tekst? :jumpy: koji tekst? :jumpy: kada ce biti gotov? :jumpy: kada ce biti gotov? :jumpy: koji tekst? :jumpy: :jumpy: :wub: Posted by: antocjo Sep 11 2005, 05:57 PM bravo za inicijativu... :booyah: osigurajte Copyrights ;) Posted by: Meneldil Sep 11 2005, 05:57 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Koji, preciousss? :girl: Pa znas da bi ti svi pomogli, ne bi sam prevodio...:girl: ----------------------------- Jedan puno kraci i puni problematicniji pa bih rekao da će dovršiti za par dana :doh: Posted by: Eol Sep 11 2005, 08:29 PM :klap: :klap: :klap: Meneldil više te nikad necu opauciti po njušci. Svaka čast majstore. :hug: Oduševljen sam i bez teksta :appl: :appl: :band: Posted by: Gilbhart Sep 11 2005, 09:12 PM Meneldile, klanjam ti se :shocking: :shocking: :shocking: ovo je odlicno :booyah: Samo nastavi dalje :yes: :booyah: Posted by: Rainalcar Sep 11 2005, 10:28 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Meneldile, klanjam ti se :shocking: :shocking: :shocking: ovo je odlicno :booyah: Samo nastavi dalje :yes: :booyah: ----------------------------- Najvoljniji, najznalačkiji, najdoprinosiviji, naj, naj - Meneldil. Klanjam se. :klap: :notworthy: Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 12 2005, 07:30 AM Meneldile - svaka čast i na trudu i na prijevodu :klap: :klap: :klap: To sad pred nas ostale stavlja veliki izazov :bonk: Posted by: Gilbhart Sep 12 2005, 07:57 AM Vidim da ovdje ima perspektivnih prevoditelja pa evo i pravila za ophođenje s onim koji će platiti to prevođenje: Ako se bavite preođenjem za agenciju ili prevodite direktno za klijenta OBAVEZNO procitajte donji tekst! 20 Rules for Dealing with Agencies and Direct Clients Back Here are a few tips for dealing with direct clients and translation agencies (based on personal experience and accounts of colleagues): 1. Always get your client to sign a Purchase Order. A written confirmation by fax or e-mail will do the trick in most jurisdictions. 2. If the agency requires you to sign a contract for subcontractors, read it carefully. If there is only the slightest doubt in your mind, don't sign it. One example of a “delicate” clause that some agencies use is the “time of payment clause”, as I call it: in it, the agency states that the translator will get paid once the agency has received payment from its end client. Under contract law, this is completely wrong and should not be signed by any professional translator. As a matter of fact, this “transaction” involves two contracts: one between the agency and its client and another contract between the agency and the freelance translator. The latter is completely independent of the former, and whether or not the end client ever pays the agency is of no concern to the translator. In other words, the agency has to pay the translator according to the contract between them, even if the end client defaults on its payment to the agency. Therefore, withholding payment until payment has come in from the end client is highly unethical and violates contract law. 3. “Train” your clients: explain to them, in simple language if necessary, what translation is all about. Do not accept any unrealistic demands from them (eg, 5,000 words within 24 hours). Many people out there still believe that translation involves nothing more than replacing words of language A with words of language B. Emphasize that the translation of 1,000 words usually takes longer than writing those same 1,000 words. 4. Be strict about your terms of payment: upon initial contact with the agency (or direct client), explain your terms to them. Be polite, yet firm. Inform them that they will be subject to late-payment interest if they don't pay within the period of time stipulated. Remember: it is the seller (= YOU) who sets out the terms of payment, not the buyer. When you go into a store or order something online, you have to abide by the seller’s terms and not your own. Most agencies will pay you within 30 days, but there are some, especially in the Benelux countries, that define payment terms of 45, 60 or more days. Explain to them that the seller defines those terms and not the buyer. 5. Sometimes, an agency may tell you that they cannot pay you on time because of cash flow problems—that is, after you have already sent them several reminders for payment. ALARM BELLS! This means: a) they have lousy clients themselves that don't pay them (which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the agency and its business acumen); B) their management is really sloppy; c) they are not professional; AND d) things can only go downhill from there ==> so stop accepting any new jobs from them; tell them that you may consider working for them again if and when you have been paid and if and when they have set their house in order. 6. If you do get into trouble with an agency, again, be firm. Inform them that you will have to charge late-payment interest and that they will also be responsible for any legal or collection fees you may incur in the process. You may also want to point out to them that you will post information about their payment practices to several payment practices lists. 7. Avoid any agencies that post jobs on the Internet or contact you by e-mail but fail to give detailed background information on themselves (phone number, mailing address, etc.). 8. Avoid clients that use free e-mail accounts such as Hotmail or Yahoo—if an agency uses such accounts, you can rest assured that they are not legit and professional. A professional agency can afford either its own server or a professional hosting service. 9. Avoid agencies that require an excessive number of words to be translated by way of a “test”—it could be a way for them to have a document translated for free. Remember: standard translation tests should not exceed 200-250 words. 10. Regarding tests: even if the sample is only 200-250 words in length, make sure it is a self-contained text; otherwise, it might be that they are sending out small portions of a larger text to a number of translators as “tests”—again, for the purposes of getting the translation for free. 11. Beware of UNSOLICITED e-mails you receive from agencies (“we have recently come across your name and would like to invite you to join our team of translators. Please send us your CV, rates, client list, etc.”)—this is often a trick to “scan” the competition (they want to know who your clients are), so if you provide them with 2 or 3 professional references, they will contact them, not to verify your work, but to solicit business from your clients! 12. Regarding references: never, under any circumstances, give out references. Giving out 2 or 3 references is common practice when applying for a permanent position, but as freelancers we cannot do that: we are legally and ethically bound to keep any and all information regarding our clients confidential. Therefore, suggest to the agency that they could send you either a 200-word test or a small job for which they would have to pay you a minimum fee (“the proof of the pudding is in the eating”). This way, the agency does not take on too much risk and you would not have to breach your clients' confidentiality. Remember: when you see a new doctor, you cannot ask the doctor for his/her patient list either!!! 13. It is always better to forgo a potential job (in case of any doubt about the client) than to go through the hassle and headaches of chasing after your money later on. 14. Stay away from “telemarketers”: if you receive a phone call from an agency, and that person talks as fast as a telemarketer or used-car salesperson and does the whole “sales-pitch dance” (even though that person may strike you as being very personable), be polite and end the conversation as quickly as possible, because, in all probability, no good will come of this conversation anyway. 15. For larger projects, charge a “retainer”, or down payment, of about 25%. Demand to be paid in various stages as the project moves along. Don't beat about the bush: tell your client that you will still have to feed and clothe yourself for the duration of the project (e.g., 2 months)—and that you will not be available to other, regular, clients for the duration of this project, for which you need to be compensated. For example, 25% upfront, another 25% halfway through the project and the remainder upon completion of the project. 16. Speaking of “retainer”: Do not be afraid to charge new clients upfront. Depending on the volume of their first job, you may require as much as 100% to be paid in advance. Credit is a privilege, not a right, that must be earned. Asking for payment upfront is the best way to separate the “wheat from the chaff”—or, put differently, to separate the crooks from the honest ones. 17. If a client asks you to acquire special software or any other product (as a requirement for receiving work), please check and double-check the facts before you agree to anything. In most cases, these people are not real clients, but merely “telemarketers” or scam artists trying to sell some useless software, product, etc. Remember: as a professional translator, you should never have to *PAY* your own clients .... that would be ridiculous and insane, wouldn't it? 18. Never, under any circumstances, accept work sight unseen. When an agency has a rather difficult or unpleasant project, they will either call you or send you an e-mail without any attachments. The idea is to get you to agree to handle the job without having had a chance to take a look at it. Some agencies pull this stunt with unsurprising regularity around 4 or 5 PM on Friday afternoons. “It’s an urgent job, and we need it ASAP, but no later than Monday morning.” Something like that gets really “fishy” if the call comes from an agency you have never worked with before. Fishy because no professional agency would ever hand an urgent and important job to an untested translator. This can mean only thing: they are trying to set you up and have no intention of ever paying you. In cases where you do know the agency, different motives come into play: they know that most translators would not want to handle the file because the file format is awkward (e.g., source text is available as a hardcopy or, worse, fax copy only) or because it is a generally difficult text. By just “cold-calling” you, they hope you will give them a quote and agree to do it just like that (“Hey, that agency is calling me. Man, that makes me feel really important! Can’t say no now!”). Then you receive the file and have the shock of your life. 19. Volumes: In Europe, many translation agencies go by the following standards: 1,000 words a day (normal volume) and 2,000 words (express/rush). Personally, I believe that any professional should be able to handle 2,000 words a day, and 2,000 words is the standard most commonly applied. Never agree to any volumes that you cannot handle. 20. Always deliver on time or ahead of schedule. This will not only ensure repeat business; it is also the professional thing to do. Too many translators today deliver late—sometimes as much as 48 hours after the deadline has passed. Tardiness is a growing “disease” in our profession these days, and many clients are already painfully aware of this trend. So, by delivering on time or early, you can score some major “brownie points”. Werner George Patels (nadam se da nije preveliko) Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 12 2005, 08:05 AM Sine - mislim da si promašio temu :( Ovdje komentiramo prijevode do sada neprevedenih Tolkienovih djela i to prijevode koje su napravili naši članovi :yes: Doduše, dosada se jedino Meneldil potrudio i iskazao :blush: Posted by: Gilbhart Sep 12 2005, 08:13 AM :buljo: A znam, al mislio sam da bi dobro bilo da stavim to negdje :doh: A nema veze :blush: Posted by: arien Sep 12 2005, 07:10 PM ima i dosta drugih prijevoda, mislim da postoji jedan kraci Aruov o onoj zadnjoj bitci (zaboravila sam elfovski naiv <_< ) i neki elrondovi a i nasla sam (URL: http://www.hrtolkienboard.org/forums/index.php?s=8eccabdb27212e048fe2dd749a0ff4f8&act=ST&f=4&t=31&st=2550#entry250750), pa braco :hug: kad dodjes na Board i procitas, stavi i taj :booyah: eh, i na toj stranici skroz gore ima jedan kraci elrondov prijevod :P Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 12 2005, 07:46 PM Bravo Arien :klap: Uskoro cemo imati lijepu arhivu... :P Posted by: Morgoth Bauglir Sep 12 2005, 07:47 PM Meneldil ima li napretka sa onim što trenutno radiš? :rolleyes: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 12 2005, 07:49 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Meneldil ima li napretka sa onim što trenutno radiš? :rolleyes: ----------------------------- Ima. :P Posted by: Turin Sep 12 2005, 08:10 PM Nisam bio dva dana i svasta novo! Wow, Meneldil bravo! Nisam jos procitao ali budem. ;) To ti je bio ogroman posao, ne? Svaka cast. ;) :booyah: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 13 2005, 12:45 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Wow, Meneldil bravo! Nisam jos procitao ali budem. ;) To ti je bio ogroman posao, ne? Svaka cast. ;) :booyah: ----------------------------- Hvala ;) :hug: Pa i nije bio baš toliko vremenski ogroman posao moj Word tvrdi da je bio otvoren nekih 12 sati :unsure: To i nije čudno budući da je tekst dosta kratak; ipak je posao u smislu da nekad uzgubiš i živce i nadu i dođe ti da odustaneš :thud: Posted by: Varda Sep 13 2005, 11:32 AM :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: Ljubavi malena!!! :hug: :hug: Da te vec ne volim, ovim trudom zasluzio bi to. No vec si presao i plafon u njoj, stoga jedino mogu reci: Hantale. Le mellon! :hug: :hug: Posted by: Varda Sep 13 2005, 11:43 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ipak je posao u smislu da nekad uzgubiš i živce i nadu i dođe ti da odustaneš :thud: ----------------------------- :doh: Zasto mi je to poznato!!! Mrzim quenyu..mrzim...mrzim...mrzim.... ipak dragi moj elf, kao i ti tjesim se sa: Hebo estel! :doh: Avo'osto! :lookaround: kad poludim. I da ne zaboravim....Balrog prste dalje od mog vanye!!!! :angry: :hug: :hug: Sunce majo Vardino! :hug: Posted by: Âru n’Adűnâi Sep 14 2005, 07:43 PM Objavljujem da cu se baciti na posao prijevoda jednog dijela UT-a, tocnije UT: Istari, oko 6500 rijeci. Ne znam koliko ce mi trebat, ali imam vremena do 10. mjeseca. Odlucio sam se za taj tekst jer mi je bio jako zanimljiv, ali jos vaznije poucan kad sam ga prvi put procitao. Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 14 2005, 08:50 PM :unsure: Jesam li ja nesto krivo shvatio, ili su UT vec u procesu prevodjenja? Mislim, to je ono sto Algoritam prevodi pa otezu i kasne, je li? Aru, pricekaj, nemoj prevodit dok ne vidis jel ovo tocno... Posted by: Elenna Eleniel Sep 14 2005, 09:15 PM UT je trebao izaci jos prosle godine <_< ali su pomicali datum za mjesec, pa jos jedan mjesec, pa jos jedan... <_< Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 15 2005, 07:03 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- :unsure: Jesam li ja nesto krivo shvatio, ili su UT vec u procesu prevodjenja? Mislim, to je ono sto Algoritam prevodi pa otezu i kasne, je li? Aru, pricekaj, nemoj prevodit dok ne vidis jel ovo tocno... ----------------------------- Zadnje što su bili meni rekli je bio rujan 2005. g. Evo rujan polako prolazi a prijevoda ni od lijeka <_< Ali navodno je i prevedeno i prošlo redakturu - navodno se još samo treba otisnuti - tako da Aru bolje utrošiš svoju energiju i znanje i vrijeme na neki drugi Tolkienov tekst :yes: Posted by: elrond Sep 15 2005, 09:08 AM UT- izlazi krajem rujna, (podatak od ponedjeljka). e, sad, ako algoritam laže mene i ja lažem vas............i čekam pravi čas:) :rofl: Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 15 2005, 11:39 AM Dao Eru :jumpy: Ali im ništa ne vjerujem više :a_ne: Kad budem svoj primjerak gledala u regalu znati ću da je izašao :lukavi: Posted by: elrond Sep 15 2005, 12:05 PM to je priča, koja drži vodu:)....ispričavam se, imam problema s compom, past će format c, samo nek me još malo tilta, tak mu malo, malo fali :ljut: :silly: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Sep 15 2005, 12:27 PM Jedan prijedlog.... Aruov post o namjeri prevodjenja je bio ontopic, a od moga nadalje svi postovi ne spadaju ovdje nego u topic Prijevodi Lotra. Tamo smo vec pricali o problemima sa Algoritmom i prijevodom UT-a. Ostavimo ovaj topic rezerviran samo za rasprave o Boardovskim prijevodima. :yes: Posted by: Âru n’Adűnâi Sep 15 2005, 12:41 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- UT- izlazi krajem rujna, (podatak od ponedjeljka). e, sad, ako algoritam laže mene i ja lažem vas............i čekam pravi čas:) :rofl: ----------------------------- To nisam znao :unsure: No, onda nista. :nemanpojma: Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 16 2005, 08:49 AM Pročitala sam ono Elrondovo u Prijevodima o Glorfindelu i evo kako to meni izgleda (nemojte me odmah ubiti - to je samo moje osobno mišljenje): Ja bih rekla da je Tolkien Glorfindela 2 (Rivendelskog) sasvim slučajno nazvao istim imenom kao i pokojnog Glorfindela Gondolinskog. Kad je to skužio razmišljao je kao da riješi taj problem, nadošao je na ideju o reinkarnaciji i tu se zapetljao :eureka: Vjerojatno otuda sve te razne varijante zapisane po papirićima i njegova nedoumica :nemanpojma: Posted by: elrond Sep 16 2005, 01:33 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Galadriel Artanis Posted on Sep 16 2005, 08:48 AM Ja bih rekla da je Tolkien Glorfindela 2 (Rivendelskog) sasvim slučajno nazvao istim imenom kao i pokojnog Glorfindela Gondolinskog. Kad je to skužio razmišljao je kao da riješi taj problem, nadošao je na ideju o reinkarnaciji i tu se zapetljao Vjerojatno otuda sve te razne varijante zapisane po papirićima i njegova nedoumica ----------------------------- nije milady, ne postoji glorfindel 1 i glorfindel 2, postoji samo JEDAN glorfindel, što tolkien u detalje objašnjava, zato je i post preveden, naravno, radi se samo o vašem dojmu, toj i takvoj dilemi, tolkien je i izrijekom objasnio REINKARNACIJU ne samo glorfindela nego i prirodu vilenjaka, koji pak za razliku od humana nisu imali potrebu za velikom pobožnošću, pošto su sve što je trebalo dobivali od valara, to je jako bitno za shvatiti jer predstavlja jednu od osnovnih posebnosti i razlika vilenjaka u odnosu na humane....čitaoci jesu zbunjeni, (ne samo vi nego i hrpa obožavatelja) i baš zato i iz tih razloga Tolkien je u HOME u detalje objasnio i IZRIJEKOM potvrdio REINKARNACIJU u vilenjaka, kao specifičnost elfova, dapače objasnio je i utjelovljenje formiranje elfova, sad druga je stvar što to ne odgovara tumačenju štioca pa se (pogrešno), uzima ono što odgovara mentalnom sklopu......dakle REINKARNACIJA I GLORFINDEL JEDA I JEDINI IZRIJEKOM TOLKIENA POTVRĐENO I OBJAŠNJENO-ZA MENE TO JEST VALIDNO A TUMAČENJA ŠTO JE TOLKIEN ZAPRAVO HTIO REĆI NE UZIMAM ZA OZBILJNO, NAIME IMAM SVOJU GLAVU I NE TREBA MI NIŠTA DRUGO DOLI TOLKIENOVIH RJEČI-SORRY na capslocku, nije mi se dalo piturat slova :D Posted by: elrond Sep 16 2005, 01:36 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Galadriel Artanis Posted on Sep 16 2005, 08:48 AM Pročitala sam ono Elrondovo u Prijevodima o Glorfindelu i evo kako to meni izgleda (nemojte me odmah ubiti - to je samo moje osobno mišljenje): ----------------------------- pa naravno da cjenim vaše mišljenje, milady, nitko vas neće niti ne smije osuđivati zbog njega, neslagati u mišljenju, to je druga stvar tu smo zbog izmjene mišljenja i postanja, različitost ne šteti, ona nas samo obogaćuje .....joj što sam mudar :bonk: Posted by: Rainalcar Sep 17 2005, 10:31 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- to je priča, koja drži vodu:)....ispričavam se, imam problema s compom, past će format c, samo nek me još malo tilta, tak mu malo, malo fali :ljut: :silly: ----------------------------- Napravi si ghost sliku :eureka: Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 17 2005, 12:14 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- nije milady, ne postoji glorfindel 1 i glorfindel 2, postoji samo JEDAN glorfindel, što tolkien u detalje objašnjava, zato je i post preveden, naravno, radi se samo o vašem dojmu, toj i takvoj dilemi, tolkien je i izrijekom objasnio REINKARNACIJU ne samo glorfindela nego i prirodu vilenjaka, koji pak za razliku od humana nisu imali potrebu za velikom pobožnošću, pošto su sve što je trebalo dobivali od valara, to je jako bitno za shvatiti jer predstavlja jednu od osnovnih posebnosti i razlika vilenjaka u odnosu na humane....čitaoci jesu zbunjeni, (ne samo vi nego i hrpa obožavatelja) i baš zato i iz tih razloga Tolkien je u HOME u detalje objasnio i IZRIJEKOM potvrdio REINKARNACIJU u vilenjaka, kao specifičnost elfova, dapače objasnio je i utjelovljenje formiranje elfova, sad druga je stvar što to ne odgovara tumačenju štioca pa se (pogrešno), uzima ono što odgovara mentalnom sklopu......dakle REINKARNACIJA I GLORFINDEL JEDA I JEDINI IZRIJEKOM TOLKIENA POTVRĐENO I OBJAŠNJENO-ZA MENE TO JEST VALIDNO A TUMAČENJA ŠTO JE TOLKIEN ZAPRAVO HTIO REĆI NE UZIMAM ZA OZBILJNO, NAIME IMAM SVOJU GLAVU I NE TREBA MI NIŠTA DRUGO DOLI TOLKIENOVIH RJEČI-SORRY na capslocku, nije mi se dalo piturat slova :D ----------------------------- Sto mu gromova Elronde :bonk: Jesi ti uopće pročitao ono što si preveo :shocking: :shocking: :shocking: Tamo ti doslovno piše: "U ljeto 1938. kad je moj otac pisao o Elrondovu vijeću u LOTR, napisao je: «Glorfindel govori o svom porijeklu u Gondolinu» (VI.214) 30 godina kasnije primio se pitanja da li je Glorfindel iz Gondolina i Glorfindel iz (Rivendella), uistinu jedna te ista osoba i to se objašnjava u dvjema diskusijama zajedno s ostalim kratkim pisanim isječcima koji se na to odnose. Označit ću to kao Glorfindel I i Glorfindel II. Prva stranica Glorfindela I nedostaje a druga počinje sa riječima: «kao čuvar ili pomoćnik» " Zbog toga sam ih i ja nazvala Glorfindel 1 i 2 - samo radi lakšeg povezivanja s tim tekstom :yes: Inače, znam ja da postoji samo jedan Glorfindel - ono gore su bila samo moja promišljanja o tom kako je Tolkien uopće došao na ideju o reinkarnaciji - moja razmišljanja koja ne moraju nužno biti točna :D Ali, sjećaš se kad sam prije jedno 10-ak mjeseci bila pokrenula ovdje raspravu o reinkarnaciji jer sam upravo bila krenula proučavati Tolkienova pisma i HOME (poglavito me se dojmio Morgoth's Ring pa sam ga nešto i citirala) i :veliki: sam toga pročitala i nisam bila sigurna jesam li sve dobro shvatila i tražila sam i vaša mišljenja. Na kraju smo se svi više manje složili oko pitanja reinkarnacije (osim Varde koja to nikako nije mogla prihvatiti :bonk: ) - tako da to nije upitno :a_ne: Juuuhuuu - pronašla sam početak te rasprave - str 72. pa nadalje :jumpy: (joj sad kad ju čitam lovi me nostalgija za tim vremenima) Nadam se da nije veliki off topic - ipak komentiramo onaj gore Elrondov prijevod O:) O:) O:) Edited by Galadriel Artanis on Sep 17 2005, 12:15 PM Posted by: Meneldil Sep 17 2005, 12:26 PM Akhm... :girl: Ne bi li bilo ljepše da o ovome raspravljate u Silmu :girl: Edit: ovo su komentari prijevoda, a ne opširne rasprave o sadržaju :girl: Edited by Meneldil on Sep 17 2005, 01:26 PM Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 17 2005, 12:27 PM Pa bi - vidiš i da sam si sama proglasila offtopic :yes: Samo što ja ne mogu cjelu raspravu prebaciti u Silm (jer nemam dozvolu za to) a glupo je staviti samo jedan post tamo :nemanpojma: Ali zato ti imaš dozvolu za prebacivanje :lukavi: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 17 2005, 12:31 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Pa bi - vidiš i da sam si sama proglasila offtopic :yes: Samo što ja ne mogu cjelu raspravu prebaciti u Silm (jer nemam dozvolu za to) a glupo je staviti samo jedan post tamo :nemanpojma: Ali zato ti imaš dozvolu za prebacivanje :lukavi: ----------------------------- Ma ne smeta ti meni ovaj offtopic sam, ipak je riječ o konstruktivnoj raspravi i tako :blah: ali bolje je da rasprave budu na mjestu :nemanpojma: Results... You do not have permission for this action. Ne baš :P Posted by: elrond Sep 18 2005, 09:03 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ------------ QUOTE ---------- to je priča, koja drži vodu:)....ispričavam se, imam problema s compom, past će format c, samo nek me još malo tilta, tak mu malo, malo fali :ljut:  :silly: ----------------------------- Napravi si ghost sliku :eureka: ----------------------------- budem....kad se naspavam ;) tnx na savjetu Posted by: elrond Sep 18 2005, 09:10 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Galadriel Artanis Posted on Sep 17 2005, 12:13 PM Zbog toga sam ih i ja nazvala Glorfindel 1 i 2 - samo radi lakšeg povezivanja s tim tekstom ----------------------------- ključna je riječ u shvaćanju tolkienov citat: OZNAČIT ću to kao Glorfindel I i Glorfindel......jednostavno krivo sam te skontao, odnosno shvatio bit onog što si htjela reći, rječi su se odnosile na tolkienovo internu oznaku, a ja sam shvatio da želiš reći da postoje dva različita glorfindela, što naravno nije točno.....događa se ;) Posted by: elrond Sep 18 2005, 09:12 AM :o a sad nas Meneldil zbog off topica, može s pravom razmontirat na sastavne djelove...... Posted by: Galadriel Artanis Sep 18 2005, 09:17 AM Možda da se premjestimo u Silm :yes: Pogledaj u Status što sam ti napisala :yes: Posted by: Elbereth Sep 20 2005, 07:12 PM Tek sad sam procitala prijevode. Odlicni su, svaka vam cast! :notworthy: I teme su jako zanimljive. :yes: Posted by: Meneldil Sep 24 2005, 10:35 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Sto je s Onim prijevodom? :unsure: ----------------------------- Piše se :unsure: ali polako :unsure: :doh: Posted by: Nessa Tasartir Oct 4 2005, 09:41 PM Vanya ne da mi ti se slat PM, imam nekog posla, nego nasla sam negdje na hardu extended verziju Silma :blink: (btw to postoji :huh: ) i ima jedan zanimljiv tekst o obicajima Eldara, pa je li to moze otic u onaj topik gore :girl: Posted by: Meneldil Oct 4 2005, 10:07 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Vanya ne da mi ti se slat PM, imam nekog posla, nego nasla sam negdje na hardu extended verziju Silma :blink: (btw to postoji :huh: ) i ima jedan zanimljiv tekst o obicajima Eldara, pa je li to moze otic u onaj topik gore :girl: ----------------------------- Pa ako si ga prevela... :blink: Posted by: Nessa Tasartir Oct 4 2005, 10:09 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Pa ako si ga prevela... :blink: ----------------------------- Nisam jos, unaprid pitam je li ga mogu stavit, da ne prevodim ako ne triba jer sam u guzvi :yes: Posted by: Meneldil Oct 4 2005, 10:12 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Nisam jos, unaprid pitam je li ga mogu stavit, da ne prevodim ako ne triba jer sam u guzvi :yes: ----------------------------- Zašto ne :nemanpojma: Ako nije već preveden :nemanpojma: Nego kakva je to extended verzija Silma? :blink: Možeš mi to poslati? :unsure: Posted by: Nessa Tasartir Oct 4 2005, 10:15 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Zašto ne :nemanpojma: Ako nije već preveden :nemanpojma: Nego kakva je to extended verzija Silma? :blink: Možeš mi to poslati? :unsure: ----------------------------- To je zapravo ovo: Silmarillion Enlarged Version Christopher Tolkien in preparing Silmarillion for publication has at a cost of great effort rendered an invaluable service to all readers of Tolkien. In order, however, to be able to make from a mass of disparate fragments and notes a coherent book, he had to excise a great deal of material. He later published all of it, together with much of other writing of his father, in “Unfinished Tales” and “History of Middle Earth”. In that way some of the stories contained in shortened versions in Silmarilion, can be reconstructed in their full, or as full as Tolkien managed to write, form by juxtaposing those books. A case in point is Narn i Hîn Húrin, The Tale of the Children of Húrin, parts of which can be found in Silmarillion, “Unfinished Tales” and tome XI of HoME. In order to make the task of reading those stories easier, I compilated all of those sources in one book, the basis of which formed Sillmarilion. This compilation can aspire to no literary value as a whole, since parts of it differ wildly in tone. Many stories, like Tuor, are not finished in full form, so that the tale ends in the middle, to be completed by a short summary from Silmarillion. Moreover, I at times was obliged to combine two sentences, excise, because they clearly belonged to a different stage of development of Tolkien legendarium, a sentence or two from a paragraph, or even to add a few words of my own. The last was necessary only in Narn i Hîn Húrin, when I had to explain what happened to the Dragon-helm between Turin’s capture in Bar-en-Danwedh and his parley with Glaurung after the Battle of Tumhalad. Taking all together, for those that would like to know the legends invented by Tolkien in one coherent and artistically consistend book, I would suggest reading Silmarillion. For those who would like to know the evolution of Tolkien’s thought, his final intentions, and the way his writing has been transformed by Christopher Tolkien, I suggest “Unfinished Tales” and “History of Middle-Earth”. For those, however, who already knowing Silmarillion would like to read from beginning to end in one book the full version of The Tale of the Children of Húrin, my compilation can be of value. At the end of the book, after Of the Rings of Power, I added a few essays or notes by Tolkien, taken from “Unfinished Tales” and “History of Middle Earth”. These are: Galadriel, Of the marriage laws and customs of the Eldar, Ósanwe-kenta, Melkor, Sauron, and Aman. To pise u uvodu :nemanpojma: Posted by: Meneldil Oct 4 2005, 10:19 PM Ajd stavi onda :klap: Čekamo prijevod :whistling: Posted by: Nessa Tasartir Oct 4 2005, 10:22 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Ajd stavi onda :klap: Čekamo prijevod :whistling: ----------------------------- oces da prevodim sve ovo osim Osawe Kentu kojeg si ti prevea :unsure: Kupila sam novi eng.-hrv. rjecnik i jedva cekam da ga upotrijebim :klap: :klap: Ovo ce bit gotovo pri kraju iduceg tjedna :yes: Ne mogu prije zbog debata :yes: Posted by: Meneldil Oct 4 2005, 10:29 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- oces da prevodim sve ovo osim Osawe Kentu kojeg si ti prevea :unsure: Kupila sam novi eng.-hrv. rjecnik i jedva cekam da ga upotrijebim :klap: :klap: Ovo ce bit gotovo pri kraju iduceg tjedna :yes: Ne mogu prije zbog debata :yes: ----------------------------- Pa prevodi što ti hoćeš :P Moja preporuka bi ti bila da nađeš na netu program word web :yes: Pregenijalna stvar :yes: Vrlo precizan eng-eng riječnik, s dosta dodatnih mogućnosti. Da bi našla neku riječ samo ju trebaš označiti, ctrl+alt+w i to je to :P Posted by: Ellin Mar 2 2007, 08:01 PM evo, ovaj topic izlazi iz duuuuuuuuuubokog sna, prekiven velikim slojem prasine. :P (URL: http://www.hrtolkienboard.org/forums/index.php?act=Link&PID=705711) amarie, ti si to prevela? bravo! :klap: :klap: :hug: :hug: nego, ajde editiraj post i dodaj otkuda je to - knjiga i poglavlje. :yes: tako da bude jos jasnije. :yes: :klap: lijepo si se potrudila. :klap: Posted by: Amarie Mar 2 2007, 08:08 PM :jumpy: :jumpy: :jumpy: fala, fala neko je ubra............ :jumpy: :jumpy: :jumpy: evo sad ću sve sredit...........nadam se da je text dobar, to mi je ipak prvi prijevod, nadam se da će vas se svidit Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Mar 2 2007, 08:09 PM :notworthy: Posted by: elrond Mar 4 2007, 10:28 AM dajem jedan prijedlog na razmatranje: da se u topicu prijevodi, da prvo tekst na engleskom, pa odmah, ispod njega prijevod....poradi lakšeg snalaženja i uspoređivanja. eto, toliko, inače na trudu i tekstu, Amarie :booyah: keep on doing it! :klap: Posted by: Amarie Mar 4 2007, 06:17 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- dajem jedan prijedlog na razmatranje: da se u topicu prijevodi, da prvo tekst na engleskom, pa odmah, ispod njega prijevod....poradi lakšeg snalaženja i uspoređivanja. ----------------------------- slažem se ;) Posted by: elrond Mar 5 2007, 10:17 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- slažem se ;) ----------------------------- :puzzled: sorry, ne da te požurujem, ali ako se slažeš, što onda ne staviš originalni engleski tekst u post? meneldil, echamion i ja smo svojevremeno počeli prevoditi tolkienove tekstove u topicu "prijevodi", ali sve je to bilo altruistički, u službi postanja, ovisno o temi o kojoj se u određenom trenutku postalo i upravo iz tih razloga stavljali smo prvo originalni, tolkienov tekst, pa potom prijevod, jer, osim našeg boardskog postanja na forum dolaze i ostali posjetitelji, pa smo mislili da bi bilo pristojno staviti originalni tekst, prije prijevoda u istom postu, tako da možebitni posjetitelj može i sam prevesti tekst, neovisno o prijevodu koji mu je ponuđen.....pogledaj u topicu prijevodi kako smo počeli :yes: ......ne kažem da je to najbolje rješenje, jer kao što rekoh prijevodi su išli u službi boardskog postanja, ali tada, dok smo to pokretali, mislili smo da je takvo što najpraktičnije rješenje za posjetitelje boarda, neovisno o tomu radi li se o memberima ili ostalim posjetiteljima foruma, ovako ako originalni tekst staviš u topicu "komentari prijevoda", a sam prijevod posebno u topic "prijevodi", manje je šanse da će netko od posjetitelja, prvo pročitati tvoj prijevod, a potom tražiti po threadu originalni engleski tekst. :yes: Posted by: imrahil Mar 5 2007, 11:26 AM Svaka vam čast na prijevodima i trudu!! Sad sam se zadubio u njih ,pročitat ću ih ovih dana kad prođe ispit nadam se zspješno! :klap: :smile: Posted by: imrahil Mar 6 2007, 01:01 PM Pošto sam bio offtopic u hobbitu. Eomer-Jomer Eregion(zelenika)-dračnik :roflmao: Posted by: elrond Mar 6 2007, 01:06 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Eomer-Jomer : ----------------------------- :rofl: još je dobro i prošao, mogao je postati jovamer. :roflmao: Posted by: imrahil Mar 6 2007, 01:09 PM ne pamtim bilo je toga još,genijalan prijevod,(šagrat,Soron,Findujlas, Ioret,Gemdži,Vrtnik,Dlakavo-stopalo :roflmao: :roflmao: ) joj ne mogu stat sorry :rotfl: Posted by: elrond Mar 6 2007, 02:09 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ne pamtim bilo je toga još,genijalan prijevod,(šagrat,Soron,Findujlas, Ioret,Gemdži,Vrtnik,Dlakavo-stopalo :roflmao: :roflmao: ) joj ne mogu stat sorry :rotfl: ----------------------------- mora se priznati, živopisno, i ne bez određenog šarma :rofl: u nekim slučajevima, doslovno, što i nije tako loše, dapače :booyah: Posted by: Amarie Mar 6 2007, 08:01 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- :puzzled: sorry, ne da te požurujem, ali ako se slažeš, što onda ne staviš originalni engleski tekst u post? ----------------------------- eto sredila sam sve, stavila sam original, sorry ali nisan mogla prije.....nadam se da je sad sve ok :blush: Posted by: imrahil Mar 9 2007, 12:56 PM Zelenika-Dračnik tako mi super zvuči,gotovo domaće. :yes: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Mar 11 2007, 10:28 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- eto sredila sam sve, stavila sam original, sorry ali nisan mogla prije.....nadam se da je sad sve ok :blush: ----------------------------- Imas li ti jos toga, ili radis na necemu trenutno? :girl: Posted by: Misticni Elf Mar 11 2007, 10:41 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Zelenika-Dračnik tako mi super zvuči,gotovo domaće. :yes: ----------------------------- Meni isto. Čudno, ali baš dobro. Stvarno mi se sviđa. ;) Posted by: Amarie Mar 11 2007, 07:36 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ------------ QUOTE ---------- eto sredila sam sve, stavila sam original, sorry ali nisan mogla prije.....nadam se da je sad sve ok :blush: ----------------------------- Imas li ti jos toga, ili radis na necemu trenutno? :girl: <img src=http://web.gay.hr/smilies/sweet.gif> ----------------------------- imaaaaaaaaaaa........... :D :D :D Posted by: Ellin Mar 11 2007, 07:42 PM amarie :buljo: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: nema se sto drugo za reci. :wub: Posted by: Amarie Mar 11 2007, 08:02 PM :kisswub: :kisswub: :kisswub: ............. a faaaalllllllllaaaaaaaaaaa........... Posted by: arien Mar 11 2007, 08:34 PM moram izdvojiti neke stvari, ne mogu si pomoci :doh: :ph34r: :wub: A uz pomoć plamena Tulkas (? Prvotno Vala Sunca ) :o <_< :roflmao: tako da je bolje da taj Vala bude Áren, djevica koju je Melkor pokušao učiniti svojom suprugom (ili silovao); ona je uzašla u plamenu bijesa i boli i njen duh je bio oslobođen iz Eäe, ali Melkor je izgorio i pocrnio, i nakon toga uvijek je bio crn, i preobratio se tami. :evilwait: tako dakle... :evilwait: <_< jako lijepo, morgy, jako lijepo... <_< If you delight in the Sun, you will walk in the path it goes.' ovo spremam za neki buduci sig :wub: :P I premda u Ardi postoji veliko zlo i mnoge su stvari neskladne, tako da se dobro jednog očituje u nesreći drugog, kaže se da su usprkos svemu temelji ovog svijeta dobri, i po prirodi se dobru okreće, iscjeljujući se unutrašnjom moći koja je tamo od početka stvaranja; :wow: njah, ovo je tako... :wub: :wub: :wub: I Ilúvatar kaže Vardi: 'Tebi ću dati oproštajni dar. U Eu ćeš ponijeti svetu svijetlost, koja dolazi izravno od mene, neokaljanu Melkorovom mišlju i pohlepom, i s tobom će ući u Eu, i biti će u Ei, ali neće biti od Ee.' :buljo: :wub: Sunce je trebali biti srce Zemlje, i Valari su namjeravali da ono daje svjetlost cijelom Kraljevstvu, neprestano i bez umaranja i jenjavanja, i da će od tog svijetla svijet primiti zdravlje, život i rast. :cry: :wub: Neki kažu da je Ithil bio izrađen od same Zemlje, i tako je Ambar smanjen; drugi kažu da je Mjesec napravljen od slične tvari kao Zemlja i sama Eä kad je bila izrađena u Pripovijesti. meni je prekrasan onaj opis u bolt1, kada se opisuje stvaranje brodova :veliki: :wub: samo me podsjetilo... :girl: :wub: :wub: amarie, svaka cast... :notworthy: :veliki: :wub: moj idol :buljo: Posted by: Amarie Mar 11 2007, 08:37 PM zahvaljujem.............. zaključak: morgoth je imao veeeeeeeeeeeelikkkkkkkkkih problema u socijalizaciji s drugima :P Edited by Amarie on Mar 11 2007, 08:40 PM Posted by: elrond Mar 12 2007, 11:27 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- zahvaljujem.............. zaključak: morgoth je imao veeeeeeeeeeeelikkkkkkkkkih problema u socijalizaciji s drugima :P ----------------------------- ili su možda, pak, drugi imali problema s morgotom :roflmao: ovisi o tome kako gledamo, jer, ne zaboravimo, morgot je htio svijet po svom, postati iluvatar umjesto iluvatara......a na vrhu mjesta za samo JEDNOG imade. :yes: Posted by: Amarie Mar 12 2007, 01:12 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ------------ QUOTE ---------- zahvaljujem.............. zaključak: morgoth je imao veeeeeeeeeeeelikkkkkkkkkih problema u socijalizaciji s drugima :P ----------------------------- ili su možda, pak, drugi imali problema s morgotom :roflmao: ovisi o tome kako gledamo, jer, ne zaboravimo, morgot je htio svijet po svom, postati iluvatar umjesto iluvatara......a na vrhu mjesta za samo JEDNOG imade. :yes: ----------------------------- kako god, he was a problem.................. :devil: Posted by: Erchamion Naéwe Mar 12 2007, 01:15 PM Amarie, u svakom slucaju svaka cast na trudu oko prijevoda :booyah: :veliki: :hug: Posted by: elrond Mar 14 2007, 12:38 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Meneldil Posted: Mar 14 2007, 12:30 PM 712232 Ama vi ni ne slutite da Crnković ima izvore rijeci o kojima mi ne znamo ni crne ni bijele ba``sma 1. pov. verbalna formula iz narodne medicine, u prozi ilii u stihu 2. knjiž. prica koju bajalac baja; bajalica Dakle, po Crnkovicu, Gandalf ili hoce otvoriti vrata formulama iz narodne medicine, ili im hoce bajati Bolje bi bilo da je napisao "prije sam znao odgonetke svih zagonetaka" ----------------------------- :o gromovi i munje, u pravu si :booyah: bajali mu po avliji, selu i tarabama u djetinjstvu pa to povukao u prijevodu :slap: :wallbash: tnx na odgovoru :yes: Posted by: Arden Mar 14 2007, 08:39 PM bravo mama, stvarno imas veliko strpljenje za prevodit onoliko teksta, vidi se da si jedna od vanyara :booyah: Edited by Arden on Mar 14 2007, 08:40 PM Posted by: Ellin Mar 16 2007, 11:21 PM vidim da je amarie opet bila vrijedna. :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: u guzvi sam ove dane pa necu jos stici procitati. :doh: ali svaka cast. :yes: :notworthy: :hug: :hug: Posted by: Amarie Mar 22 2007, 08:14 PM u svezi mog prijevoda Ambarkante, sori što ovo nisam prije stavila, pripadajući dijagrami i mape: (URL: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/amarieveanne/Diagram1.jpg?t=1174590581) (URL: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/amarieveanne/Diagram2.jpg?t=1174590629) (URL: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/amarieveanne/Diagram3.jpg?t=1174590680) (URL: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/amarieveanne/Map4.jpg?t=1174590718) (URL: http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/amarieveanne/Map5.jpg?t=1174590748) nije baš da se dobro vidi, ali je puno bolje nego u knjizi. ;) Posted by: imrahil Mar 30 2007, 11:51 AM Svaka čast,gledaj ti to znastveni prikaz Arde. :notworthy: svaka čast na trudu. Posted by: Feanor Curufinwe Mar 30 2007, 09:39 PM New star is born :wub: Amarie :wub: znam da jako kasnim sa pohvalama, ali zaista svaka cast na ulozenom trudu :hug: :hug: Posted by: elrond Apr 2 2007, 11:07 AM Amarie, podržavam tvoje napore i sve ono što činiš u prijevodima :yes: .......da nam je više takvih membera :booyah: Posted by: Amarie Veanne Apr 10 2007, 09:49 PM nakon male pauze, eto jo jedan prijevod. :blush: htjela sam vas pitat, za one koji su čitali, što mislite što je Borlas našao u svojoj kući i gdje ga je saelon pozvao? p.s. hvala na pohvalama :hug: :hug: :hug: Edited by Amarie Veanne on Apr 10 2007, 09:48 PM Posted by: Ellin Apr 20 2007, 10:39 PM amarie, bravo jos jednom! :jumpy: :notworthy: i mali komentar samog teksta - uvijek me rastuzi koliko je morgoth napravio zla... :doh: Posted by: Meneldil Apr 20 2007, 10:40 PM Svaka čast :notworthy: Posted by: Amarie Veanne Apr 20 2007, 10:43 PM :blush: hvala vam puno na podršci....... :hug: :hug: :hug: Posted by: Waa Apr 23 2007, 06:19 PM tek sam sad vidjela ovaj topic i nemam što drugo reći nego - WOW!!! BRAVO! :kissplus: Posted by: Sorongil Sulandune Apr 29 2007, 07:44 PM A kad sam ja govorio da mi sami prevedemo HOME , onda ste mi se smijali ... Posted by: elrond Apr 30 2007, 10:18 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- A kad sam ja govorio da mi sami prevedemo HOME , onda ste mi se smijali ... ----------------------------- mogu ti reći samo za svoj stav, a on glasi sad kao i prije da se PROTIVIM takvom čemu, ne, nikom se ne smijem niti se ismijavam od bilo koga, ali onda, kao i sad, mislim da je takvo što preozbiljan posao, koji traži ekipiranu, iskusnu ekipu prevoditelja, i stručnjaka, drugo je ovo što memberi na boardu prevode za potrebe postanja i što jest u službi postanja.....hoću reći, čisti entuzijazam i ljubav spram tolkiena nije dovoljan i dostatan, osobito ne spram tolkiena koji i pred iskusnu ekipu stavlja gotovo nemoguće zahtjeve profesionalnog i kvalitetnog prevođenja. Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 9 2007, 04:16 PM napokon! topic prijevodi je opet proradio... morf draga svaka ti čast :notworthy: Posted by: Ellin Sep 10 2007, 07:56 AM morf, svaka cast za prijevode pisama, genijalan posao! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: Edited by Ellin on Sep 10 2007, 08:55 AM Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 10 2007, 08:06 AM :blush: :blush: To mi je jucer palo na pamet. Otvorim svoj Tolkien folder, vidim Pisma i odjednom skužim da ih dosta ljudi ne čita jer nisu prevedena, a stvarno daju najbolji uvid u Tolkienovu :wub: osobnost. I donekle razvoj njegove licnosti jer prate period od faksa nadalje :wub: Pa rekoh sama sebi, ionako stalno iznova čitam te dokumente, bolje bi bilo da budem korisna pa ih usput probam prevesti :blush: drago mi je da vam se sviđa :blush: :blush: :wub: Btw, Amarie precious ti ćeš nastaviti sa svojim prijevodima HOME-a? :girl: Posted by: elrond Sep 10 2007, 09:53 AM Morfiwen, svaka pohvala za inicijativu prevođenja tolkienovih pisama :yes: no, ako nije pretenciozno, želio bih usmjeriti ljude koji su voljni i imaju vremena za prijevode tolkienova djela, da dovrše započeto :yes: naime, većina rasprava i donekle, nesporazuma vodi se o naravi morgotove snage, disperziranju morgotove moći i o porijeklu orka, odnosno jesu li orci postali od vilenjaka ili humana. tolkienova objašnjenja, odnosno izvorne riječi dane su povodom navedenih nedoumica u Morgoth's Ringu, HOME 10, onoliko koliko mi je vrijeme dozvolilo, radio sam na prijevodu koji objašnjava o čemu se radi, počela je i Amarië Vëannë, što me ugodno iznenadilo :yes: :booyah: radi se 60 stranica tolkienova teksta, točnije od stranice 370-431, Part five, Myths transformed, od kojih imamo prevedeno 5-6 već spomenutih stranica, u topicu "prijevodi". IMHO kad već prevodimo, tad prevodimo ono što nas ponajviše interesira, a to su, upravo tih 55 stranica, stoga ako ste voljni nastavite s prijevodima tolkienovih transformiranih mitova i svi ćemo znati više. Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 10 2007, 09:58 AM E vrlo rado bih se upustila u prevođenje HOME-a :yes: tih pedesetak stranica nije nikakav problem, može se za tri-četiri dana, ili možda tjedan dana laganim tempom :yes: ali imam jedan mali problemcić :doh: moji PDF Home-ovi su mi na ZG kompu :doh: tražim dobrovoljca dobre duše s Word/PDF/other HOME-om da mi ga mejla ako nije problem, makar ovaj dio koji treba prevesti edit: ustvari ne trebate :rotfl: downloadat ću :eureka: :rotfl: Edited by Morfiwen on Sep 10 2007, 10:58 AM Posted by: elrond Sep 10 2007, 10:02 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- E vrlo rado bih se upustila u prevođenje HOME-a :yes: tih pedesetak stranica nije nikakav problem, može se za tri-četiri dana, ili možda tjedan dana laganim tempom :yes: ali imam jedan mali problemcić :doh: moji PDF Home-ovi su mi na ZG kompu :doh: tražim dobrovoljca dobre duše s Word/PDF/other HOME-om da mi ga mejla ako nije problem, makar ovaj dio koji treba prevesti edit: ustvari ne trebate :rotfl: downloadat ću :eureka:  :rotfl: ----------------------------- mislim, da ti ima, Amarië Vëannë, ako nikako drukčije ne bude išlo. edit: vrlo rado bih vam se pridružio, ali, nažalost to je nemoguće, poradi obveza......bar sam započeo :( Edited by elrond on Sep 10 2007, 10:02 AM Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 10 2007, 10:05 AM Već sam našla i skinula, sad se bacam na tih pedesetak stranica zbog opceg dobra i interesa Boarda :rotfl:, pa ću nastaviti s Pismima nakon toga Posted by: elrond Sep 10 2007, 10:11 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Već sam našla i skinula, sad se bacam na tih pedesetak stranica zbog opceg dobra i interesa Boarda :rotfl:, pa ću nastaviti s Pismima nakon toga <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/pionir.gif> ----------------------------- bilo bi dobro, da ti pomogne tko može, lakše je i brže :yes: i da ako je moguće zadržite dosadašnji način prevođenja, dakle prvo tekst na oriđiđi engleskom, potom prijevodi, i to iz dva razloga, poradi onih membera koji vole čitati u originalu i da sebe zaštitite od mogućih malicioznih komentara kvalitete prijevoda. Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 10 2007, 02:21 PM aaa morf super :jumpy: actually ja sam prevela jedno tolkienovo pismo, kad se sad malo prisjetim :lookaround: samo sam ga zaboravila lekturirat :doh: lijepo, ovako sam se barem podsjetila pa ga mogu i dovršiti :roflmao: naime radi se o pismu 131 (mislim :unsure. ) miltonu waldmanu, dio kojeg se nalazi u engleskom izdanju silmarilliona i stvarno je odlican i poucan tekst. i da elrond ima potpuno pravo, myths transformed je definitivno jedan od najzanimljivijih dijelova HoME-a uopce :veliki: vrelo informacija. tako da morf, ako ti treba za prijevod štagod ja ti imam oriđiđi tekstove :yes: Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 11 2007, 10:06 AM Evo sam jucer zapocela prijevod s ovim uvodom i prvim bilješkama :yes: Rado bih stavila i original, ali u ovom glupom PDf-u <_< ne mogu copy-pasteat, a ne da mi se sad pretipkavati Što se malicioznih komentara tice, kamo srece da ih bude :roflmao: onda će ti komentatori prevesti bolje pa ćemo imati i bolji prijevod :klap: Amarie, precious, stavi to pismo :veliki: :klap: Posted by: Erchamion Naéwe Sep 11 2007, 10:07 AM Svaka cast na trudu i volji :klap: :klap: :klap: :wub: Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 11 2007, 10:18 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Svaka cast na trudu i volji :klap: :klap: :klap: :wub: ----------------------------- Uuu, ovo je tek pocetak :rofl: tenks :veliki: :hug: Posted by: Erchamion Naéwe Sep 11 2007, 10:21 AM Pa da Ceka te jos samo 12 knjiga Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 11 2007, 10:22 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Pa da <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/sweet.gif> Ceka te jos samo 12 knjiga <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/dance.gif> ----------------------------- Zrno po zrno, pogaca, kamen po kamen palaca -_- Stranica po stranica, Morfiwen će na kraju bit starica -_- :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Posted by: Erchamion Naéwe Sep 11 2007, 10:23 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Zrno po zrno, pogaca, kamen po kamen palaca -_- Stranica po stranica, Morfiwen &#263;e na kraju bit starica -_- :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ----------------------------- A :crazy: To su one poznate: tocka, tocka, tockica :crazy: :jumpy: Samo ti prevodi a mi cemo citati i uzivati i bodriti te -_- Procitao sam prijevod :klap: :klap: Posted by: elrond Sep 11 2007, 11:04 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Evo sam jucer zapocela prijevod s ovim uvodom i prvim bilješkama :yes: ----------------------------- kako ne možeš? može se može :yes: u acrobat readeru, u statusnoj traci imaš select tool, to ti je u acrobat readeru 8 na alatnoj traci strelica koso položena ulijevo i pored nje znak za umetanje, dakle klikneš na opisani alat na alatnoj traci i potom označiš željeni tekst, desni klik i copy/paste na željeno mjesto. dodatak: i općenito ako hoćete u pdf-u selektirati i sliku ili što slično a nemate takvu mogućnost na alatnoj traci, tad kliknite DESNIM klikom na PRAZNO mjesto na alatnoj traci i klikom uključite ono što vam treba, a ako vam ni to nije zadovoljavajuće nakon spomenutog desnog klika na prazno mjesto na alatnoj traci, u padajućem izborniku skrolajte na posljednju opciju, "more tools", pa si uključite što vam treba. :yes: Edited by elrond on Sep 11 2007, 11:11 AM Posted by: elrond Sep 11 2007, 11:08 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- aaa morf super :jumpy: actually ja sam prevela jedno tolkienovo pismo, kad se sad malo prisjetim :lookaround: samo sam ga zaboravila lekturirat :doh: lijepo, ovako sam se barem podsjetila pa ga mogu i dovršiti :roflmao: naime radi se o pismu 131 (mislim :unsure. ) miltonu waldmanu, dio kojeg se nalazi u engleskom izdanju silmarilliona i stvarno je odlican i poucan tekst. ----------------------------- zapravo, postao sam u odnošenju na tvoj posljednji prijevod, to je ovaj: (URL: http://www.hrtolkienboard.org/forums/index.php?s=83033aacdf7db8f774e2651a16669770&act=ST&f=4&t=363&st=15) a taj se nalazi na stranici 408-411 morgotova ringa :yes: Posted by: elrond Sep 11 2007, 11:18 AM i zaključno, Morfiwen, želim puno uspjeha u prijevodu, za dobrobit svih tolkienovih fanova i što je još bitnije razrješenje dilema, što jest a što nije, ponavljam osobno sam protiv prijevoda knjiga HOME, da to radi jedna osoba a ne tim stručnjaka, (uz dužno poštovanje prema trudu kolegica i kolega s foruma.....), no obzirom da je ovo za potrebe postanja, na boardu, i da uz prijevod ide original teksta, mislim da tolkienovi fanovi neće biti u ničemu zakinuti, tim više što se radi o jednom segmentu tolkienova opusa, točnije 61-noj, stranici transformiranih mitova. Edited by elrond on Sep 11 2007, 11:17 AM Posted by: elrond Sep 11 2007, 11:20 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Zrno po zrno, pogaca, kamen po kamen palaca -_- Stranica po stranica, Morfiwen će na kraju bit starica -_- :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ----------------------------- ali će vaša djela, milady, ostati opjevana u srcima tolkienovih čitatelja :yes: Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 12 2007, 08:57 AM :jumpy: :jumpy: upalilo je ovo s copy-pasteom ''na prazno'', editirah onaj prijašnji prijevod Sad sam zapocela s drugim, gotova je prva prica u njemu, kad dovršim drugu, dodat ću je :yes: . Stil prve je pomalo čudan :huh: uglavnom, dijelovi koje piše Tolkien su prava milost u odnosu na Christopherova ''objašnjenja'' :wacko: taj čovjek od obicne recenice tipa ''Dobar dan.'' uspije napraviti krležijansku :wacko: dok dospijem do predikata, zaboravim što je bio subjekt pa tek tada skužim da nešto ne štima, pa ponovno sve slažem :wacko: tip nije normalan :wacko: Što se tice prijevoda čitavog HOME-a... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ne pada mi ni na kraj pameti :rotfl: :rotfl: nek se tim Crnković bavi :hah: ali za neke djelove, koji su zanimljivi, nema problema :rofl: @opjevana moja djela :rotfl: molim da mi spomenik bude aere perrennius :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: i nemojte mi zaboraviti nahvaliti kosu u spjevu ''A Morfiwen HOMEthoniel'' :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 12 2007, 09:33 AM sad imamo i dva prijevoda 2. teksta myths transformed :roflmao: bravo morfiwen, ima li šanse da i cijeli morgoth's ring prevedeš? Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 12 2007, 09:35 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- sad imamo i dva prijevoda 2. teksta myths transformed <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/drama.gif> :roflmao: bravo morfiwen, ima li šanse da i cijeli morgoth's ring prevedeš? <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/sweet.gif> ----------------------------- Kako dva? :blink: nemoj, molim te nemoj mi reć da je već prevedeno? :cry: :luuuud: :luuuud: :luuuud: Za čitav Morgijev Prsten :ajme: ne znam, ne vjerujem baš :blink: :roflmao: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 12 2007, 09:37 AM ja sam prevela već Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 12 2007, 09:41 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ja sam prevela ve&#263; <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/sweet.gif> ----------------------------- :luuuud: :luuuud: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :doh: Ajme kako sam blesava! :bonk: :luuuud: Okej, barem ne moram prevoditi drugu pricu :rotfl: :rotfl: preskocit ću ostatak i odmah prijeci na treci dio :rofl: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 12 2007, 09:43 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ------------ QUOTE ---------- ja sam prevela ve&#263; <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/sweet.gif> ----------------------------- :luuuud: :luuuud: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :doh: Ajme kako sam blesava! :bonk: :luuuud: Okej, barem ne moram prevoditi drugu pricu :rotfl: :rotfl: preskocit &#263;u ostatak i odmah prijeci na treci dio :rofl: ----------------------------- :roflmao: mislim da treci tekst nije preveden , ali provijeri zlato moje :roflmao: i nemoj šizit :P sve je ok vanyarska senilnost Posted by: Ellin Sep 13 2007, 10:20 AM morf opet vrijedna. :wub: :notworthy: Posted by: elrond Sep 14 2007, 10:59 AM morfiwen, svaka čast :booyah: nisam još stigao pročitati prijevode, ali na upornosti, želji i trudu :klap: bilo bi lijepo kad bi se još netko od membera uključio u prijevođenje spomenutog teksta, jednostavno da olakšamo i ubrzamo prijevod, da sav teret na padne na leđa jednog membera........samo kao prijedlog :yes: Posted by: ixidor Sep 14 2007, 10:05 PM prijava. samo.. uhmm... :girl: treba bi onda doc do eng verzije... pm. Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 15 2007, 10:14 AM :klap: odlicno da se još netko ukljuci :klap: makar mi uopce nije problem izgubiti sat vremena dnevno na prijevod, nikud mi se ne žuri, a ionako mi je bolje prevoditi nego gledati blesavu televiziju :nemanpojma: :rofl: da ne spominjem koji je gušt :veliki: opet čitati HOME :wub: nisam od treceg srednje :ajme: sve u strahu da se ne navucem opet :buljo: :rofl: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 16 2007, 07:11 PM oli se možemo prijavit za prevođenje :crazy: :roflmao: i'm in Posted by: elrond Sep 17 2007, 11:35 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- oli se možemo prijavit za prevođenje :crazy: :roflmao: i'm in <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/smilies/dance.gif> ----------------------------- blago vama :( Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 17 2007, 11:36 AM zašto blago nama i :( smajli :unsure: ? Posted by: elrond Sep 17 2007, 11:39 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- zašto blago nama i :( smajli :unsure: ? ----------------------------- zato i stoga, milady, što imate vremena i možete se baviti onim što volite i dakako, biti u najboljem mogućem društvo, s Tolkienom :yes: dao vam Iluvatar, pa uživajte, malo ali samo malčice i za mene...... Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 17 2007, 11:46 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- zato i stoga, milady, što imate vremena i možete se baviti onim što volite i dakako, biti u najboljem mogućem društvo, s Tolkienom :yes: dao vam Iluvatar, pa uživajte, malo ali samo malčice i za mene...... ----------------------------- ah zato (IMAGE: http://web.gay.hr/smilies/sigh.gif) ma nać ćeš i ti vremena ne brini :P :kisswub: do tad ćemo se zabavit i za tebe prevodeci :yes: Edited by Amarië Vëannë on Sep 17 2007, 12:45 PM Posted by: elrond Sep 17 2007, 11:48 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ah zato (IMAGE: http://web.gay.hr/smilies/sigh.gif) ma nać ćeš i ti vremena ne brini :P :kisswub: do tad ćemo se zabavit i za tebe prevodeci :yes: ----------------------------- <_< Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 17 2007, 03:34 PM Lista lista!(IMAGE: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/10/happyrunbychaosemeraldhce0.gif) Ovako, do sada je iz petog dijela prevedeno: I. II. III. IV. V. VI. VIII. Ostaje nam: VII. IX. X. XI. Amarie, preciouss, mislim da si kraj svog prijevoda VIII. dijela stavila VII. umjesto VIII. :doh: ajd pliz editiraj, skoro sam preskocila neprevedeni :rotfl: :rotfl: :roflmao: :roflmao: Ovako stvari stoje narode moj lijepi prijavljeni :wub: sedmi dio je najduži, al ja sam ga već pocela prevoditi pa volontiram da nastavim :wub: deveti, deseti i jedanaesti su li-la dužine i ne bi smjelo biti previše problema pa navalite na koji hocete i napišite koji ste uzeli da ne bi netko išao opet prevoditi :rofl: :hug: @Elrond Uf, meštre imamo još samo ostatak ove i jedanaest knjiga :rofl: , prevodit ćeš i ti čim uhvatiš vremena :hug: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 17 2007, 06:36 PM :doh: skužajte na zabuni omaklo mi se slovce :mellow: eto mogu ja uzet 11 tekst :yes: icidore, javi mi se što ćeš uzet pa da ti pošaljem oriđiđi tekstove :P Posted by: taira Sep 17 2007, 08:24 PM Znate da kad neko gurne lojtre u sceni brorbe u helm's deepu piše "gnjec" u titlovima :rotfl: ? Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 17 2007, 08:45 PM taira krivi topic :yes: ovo je topic za komentiranje topica (URL: http://www.hrtolkienboard.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=363&s=5313455e779f5f11ab59080d2a1b39c8) što su prevodili memberi :yes: mislim da je ovo što si tražila (URL: http://www.hrtolkienboard.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=311&s=5313455e779f5f11ab59080d2a1b39c8) :hug: Edited by Amarië Vëannë on Sep 17 2007, 09:46 PM Posted by: Númellóte Sep 17 2007, 08:50 PM Probat ću vam i ja prevesti nekaj, al ne ovaj tjedan. Konačno imam cijelu kolekciju HoME-a :jumpy: :jumpy: :wub: Posted by: ixidor Sep 17 2007, 10:02 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- :doh: skužajte na zabuni <img src=http://www.geocities.com/arien155/drama.gif> omaklo mi se slovce :mellow: eto mogu ja uzet 11 tekst :yes: icidore, javi mi se što &#263;eš uzet pa da ti pošaljem oriđiđi tekstove :P ----------------------------- daj koi je sljedeci.. ako nije dug salji naredna dva. :booyah: Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 21 2007, 08:23 AM upravo sam sasvim slucajno pronašla u bespucima my documentsa već gotov i preveden tekstić o lembasu :P pa eto, postano Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 21 2007, 09:06 AM Bravo Amarie :klap: Ja sam jucer završila prijevod VII., napokon :thud: Morala sam razbiti tekst u dva posta jer je bilo oko 1500 charactersa previše za jedan post :roflmao: :roflmao: nego evo updatea: Prevedeno: I. II. III. IV. V. VI. VII. VIII. Nije prevedeno: IX. X. XI. E sad, Amarie, Ixi, Nume, pliz napišite tko je uzeo koje poglavlje da ne bi netko ponovno prevodio nešto što vi već prevodite :hug: Posted by: Númellóte Sep 21 2007, 09:28 AM Jesi ti sigurna da sam se ja javila za ikoje poglavlje? :unsure: :P Uglavnom Núme se javlja za IX Edited by Númellóte on Sep 21 2007, 10:28 AM Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 21 2007, 09:42 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Jesi ti sigurna da sam se ja javila za ikoje poglavlje? :unsure: :P Uglavnom Núme se javlja za IX ----------------------------- :ajme: U čelo te ljubim, ujna :kisswub: :roflmao: Posted by: ixidor Sep 21 2007, 09:57 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Uglavnom Núme se javlja za IX ----------------------------- :D ali mene se ne treba prevodit.. :P :luuuud: dajte meni X i XI od volje sam i imam slobodnog vremena! Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 21 2007, 10:03 AM Okej evo liste, pa dopunite ako bude promjena, zamjena itd :wacko: IX. -Nume X.-Ixi XI.-Ixi Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Sep 21 2007, 11:35 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- eto mogu ja uzet 11 tekst :yes: ----------------------------- :sly: jedanaesti tekst je moj :devil: :P Posted by: Morfiwen Sep 22 2007, 09:43 AM :scared: To jest: IX. -Nume X.-Ixi XI.-Amarie :lookaround: don't kill the list-maker :lookaround: Posted by: Númellóte Sep 25 2007, 10:14 AM Ja ću zamolit nekoga da preuzme moj dio prijevoda :wub: , osjećam se ko da traktor pregazio <_< Mrzim prehlade :angry: Edited by Númellóte on Sep 25 2007, 11:14 AM Posted by: ixidor Sep 27 2007, 08:24 PM mogu ja uskocit i zgrabit?? Posted by: Númellóte Sep 28 2007, 10:07 AM Možeš :hug: :hug: Posted by: Morfiwen Oct 9 2007, 08:08 PM Ixi :girl: Amarie :girl: primicu li se kraju ti prijevodi? :girl: :roflmao: Posted by: ixidor Oct 9 2007, 10:28 PM pisma jos nisam nit dobio od odredjene mlade dame.. Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Oct 9 2007, 10:36 PM :lookaround: would that be me or...? :doh: Posted by: Morfiwen Oct 10 2007, 06:40 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- :lookaround: would that be me or...? :doh: ----------------------------- Cccc opet su ti se aktivirali oni noldorski zabušantski geni a tako se trudim ubiti ih hidrogenom Ajde brže, brzinom munje šalji jadnom, radišnom malom tekstove (IMAGE: http://www.gay.hr/web/smilies/starac.gif) On se jadan tako trudi da ih nabavi, zivka te po cijele dane da šalješ a ti neceš strašno Posted by: ixidor Oct 11 2007, 07:24 PM morf, bi li mi mogla ti poslat x i xi dio?? Posted by: Morfiwen Oct 11 2007, 08:03 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- morf, bi li mi mogla ti poslat x i xi dio?? ----------------------------- of course B) ne šalji poluvanyu da obavi Vanyin posao :roflmao: :roflmao: Posted by: Dior Aranel Eluchil Jan 11 2009, 05:03 PM Bas sam uhvatio vremena i procitao ovaj topic i stvarno sam zadivljen trudom koji neki memberi ovdje ulazu. Samo naprijed, nadam se da cemo uskoro imati sve vise i vise prijevoda. :hug: :jumpy: :booyah: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Apr 4 2009, 08:47 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ------------ QUOTE ---------- Valarauco ramainen, drago mi da si nešto napisao. Prijevod je moj ,imam još prijevoda, ali malo jer sam tek počeo. Svoj sam prijevod poslao da mi neko pokaže gdje sam pogriješio i tako te stvari. : :rolleyes: Javi mi koji su to problemčići da ih ispravim :booyah: ----------------------------- Na ovaj topic sam mislio, ovdje je najbolje prebaciti se, pa cemo ovdje nastavit :yes: Moram ti odmah reci, svaka cast na zadatku kojeg si se prihvatio, jer jeo vo velik posao, i najvjerojatnije nece biti nagradjen :doh: Algoritam nema nikakvih planova za prijevod i objavljivanje HOME-a u dogledno vrijeme... osim toga, to je posao dovoljno obiman da uposli dosta strucnjaka... a iskreno, kod Tolkiena je jos najmanje vazno biti briljantan u poznavanju engleskog, mnogo je vaznije znati sve o njegovom svijetu :yes: Vidjet ces sad dolje na primjeru na sto sam tocno mislio :yes: (...) and the first emergence in nar- rative of the Valar, of the Children of Iluvatar, Elves and Men, of the Dwarves and the Orcs, and of the lands in which their history is set, Valinor beyond the western ocean, and Middle-earth, the 'Great Lands' between the seas of east and west. (...)Prvi je napisao priče koje govore o Valaru, o Djeci Iluvatar, o Vilenjacima, Ljudima, o Patuljcima i Orkovima, i o njihovim zemljama, Valinor iza zapadnog okeana, i Međuzemlje, „Velike zemlje“ između istočnih i zapadnih mora. Ovdje ima par problemčića koji bi ti mogli prilicno otezati prevodjenje :yes: Na primjer, rijec "Valar", u ovom slucaju ne govori o nekoj osobi koja se zove Valar, vec je to mnozina od "Vala", sto oznacava Ainure... mozemo ih slobodno nazvati rasom :yes: U hrvatskom je to prevedeno kao Valari, iako bi tocnije bilo Vale :yes: Dalje, trebalo bi ici: o Djeci Iluvatarovoj :yes: takodjer, Orcs se ne prevodi kao orkovi, nego kao orci :P Dalje, and of the lands in which their history is set, si ti preveo samo: i o njihovim zemljama, a to nije fer prema piscu, pogotovo ne prema Tolkienu :P steta je kidati komade njegovih recenica i skracivati ih, prelijepe su ;) I jos: Valinor beyond the western ocean, and Middle-earth, the 'Great Lands' between the seas of east and west. Ti si ovo preveo kao: Valinor iza zapadnog okeana, i Međuzemlje, „Velike zemlje“ između istočnih i zapadnih mora. - ali tu je mali problemcic sto ti se padezi ne slazu... govori se o zemljama, dakle o ValinorU, i o MedjuzemljU :eureka: o kome , o cemu :yes: Kuzis sad koliko se problema nakrca u samo jedan mali odjeljak kad ga krenes podrobnije analizirati? :doh: Prevodjenje kao posao je uzasno tesko i zahtjevno, i na zalost, podlozno je kritici :doh: Nije pametno prihvatiti se tako zahtjevnih tekstova kada jos nisi sasvim ovladao zanatom i gradjom :yes: Ono cega imas u izobilju je, ocito, ogromna volja :klap: jos jednom, skidam kapu na ovom poduhatu :notworthy: ali poslusaj starije, ajde ipak kreni s necim sto je malo lakse :eureka: ovo je pretesko cak i za iskusne prevoditelje, vjeruj mi :yes: ovdje na Boardu ima ljudi koji puno znaju i o Tolkienu i o engleskom, a ipak se ne usudjuju ni taknut ovo sto si ti zapoceo... no ako uskoro krenes sa nekim laksim Tolkienovim tekstom, predvidjam da bi jako brzo mogao steci i rutinu i znanje, i da bi mogao sve nas pokrenuti da nesto i mi pocnemo radit :P :booyah: ----------------------------- preseljeno konacno u pravi topic, nakon treceg pokusaja :silly: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Apr 4 2009, 08:47 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- To je ono što sam tražio da mi neko kaže kao šta trebam i gdje. Možeš li mi da preporučiš šta da pokušam prevesti? Neki lakši tekst pa da vidim kako mi to ide.  :D Puno ti hvala. To je ono što sam tražio. :booyah: ----------------------------- drugi post -_- Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Apr 4 2009, 08:48 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Uh, tesko pitanje :doh: Ne znam je li ti mislis prevodit ovako, za svoju dusu ( i za nas :girl: ), ili mislis to nekome ponuditi... znam za Hrvatsku da se ne planira nista  izdavati, trenutno, ne znam kako BiH stoji s tim :nemanpojma: Osim toga, nije lakoni naci nesto Tolkienovo a da nije vec prevedeno, a pogotovo da je jednostavnije :doh: Mozda, na primjer, njegova pisma :eureka:  Puna su podataka o Lotru, nisu pretjerano komplicirana, i mozda bi ti to dobro islo... Ako nisi vec bio na Eai, na Portalu, odi i registriraj se, pa  ce u Knjiznici na portalu moci skinuti, mislim da imaju ta pisma :yes: To bi mogla ispasti fina, mala, zanimljiva knjizica... a dobro je i sto su kratka, i oznacena brojevima, pa vidis koliko napredujes :rofl: ----------------------------- treci :roflmao: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Apr 4 2009, 08:49 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Nije ni u BiH ništa bolje. Planiram prevoditi za sebe pa ćemo vidjeti šta će nam budućnost donijeti. Potražiću pisma i vidjeću kako mi ide. :D Hvala ti još jednom :D ----------------------------- i cetvrti, gotovo :brise: nego, nisam siguran ima li Portal pisma, pa ako ih ne nadjes, javi se ovdje, neki memberi ih imaju :yes: i ne zaboravi, moras se registrirat da bi mogao do knjiznice :hug: Posted by: Ellin Apr 4 2009, 08:52 PM upravo sam provjerila, ima letters u doc formatu. :yes: dakle, azur, registriraj se na portal, klikni na knjiznicu i unutra ces naci knjige u elektronskom obliku. :yes: i btw, dobrodosao na board! :klap: :hug: Posted by: azur Apr 4 2009, 08:52 PM registriraću se Posted by: azur Apr 4 2009, 08:53 PM hvala na dobrodošlici. :D Posted by: azur Apr 4 2009, 09:05 PM Evo pronašao sam Letters of J.K.K Tolkiena :D Posted by: Ellin Apr 4 2009, 09:08 PM sretno, ugodan rad! :klap: i naravno, ako nisi siguran oko nekog izraza/pojma ili pak samih dogadjaja u tolkienovoj mitologiji, mozes pitati za pomoc bilo koga od nas. :yes: Posted by: azur Apr 4 2009, 09:28 PM Pitaću vas. Hvala :booyah: Samo da još pitam koliko je otprilike prevedeno pisama?? :D Posted by: Númellóte Apr 4 2009, 09:33 PM Kod nas? Nije uopće. Možda smo mi samo za sebe nešto prevodili, ali drugo ne. :unsure: Posted by: Ellin Apr 4 2009, 09:33 PM na hrvatskom jeziku ne postoji sluzbeni prijevod, odnosno, nijedna izdavacka kuca nije objavila prijevod lettersa. ;) ne znam iz glave je li neki member vec preveo neko pismo, to ces vidjeti ako poviris u topic prijevodi membera, u koji si i sam danas postao. :yes: Posted by: saruman Apr 4 2009, 09:35 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- na hrvatskom jeziku ne postoji sluzbeni prijevod, odnosno, nijedna izdavacka kuca nije objavila prijevod lettersa. ne znam iz glave je li neki member vec preveo neko pismo, to ces vidjeti ako poviris u topic prijevodi membera, u koji si i sam danas postao. :: ----------------------------- Svaki member na Boardu jedno pa smo gotovi u roku keks. :mellow: Zašto imam osjećaj da ću zažaliti što sam ovo rekao? :ph34r: Posted by: Númellóte Apr 4 2009, 09:37 PM Nije loša ideja -_- Evo, ti prvi kreni -_- Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Apr 5 2009, 10:16 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Nije loša ideja -_- ----------------------------- Pa cek, i nije losa ideja. :crazy: Ako se skupi dovoljno dobrovoljaca, imate mene. ^^ Posted by: Queen Arwen Apr 7 2009, 07:46 PM I ja se javljam Pošto nemam letterse kod sebe, bilo bi dobro da ih netko tko ih ima ovdje c/p-a, da se vidi odmah što je prevedeno (vidjela sam ih par u prijevodima), što nije i da se ljudi raspodijele :P Tko može, nek uzme i više od jednog :P Koliko ih ima uopće? :ph34r: Ajde, dobrovoljci Posted by: azur Apr 8 2009, 02:39 PM Ja sam poceo prevoditi letterse pa cu vam javiti kad zavrsim prvi letter. :D Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Apr 8 2009, 05:05 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Pošto nemam letterse kod sebe, bilo bi dobro da ih netko tko ih ima ovdje c/p-a, da se vidi odmah što je prevedeno (vidjela sam ih par u prijevodima), što nije i da se ljudi raspodijele :P ----------------------------- Vise nego odlican prijedlog! :crazy: Ako se ne mogu copy pasteat ovdje, molim pm od nekog tko ih ima. Posted by: Lalaith en Noldor Apr 8 2009, 05:09 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Vise nego odlican prijedlog! :crazy: Ako se ne mogu copy pasteat ovdje, molim pm od nekog tko ih ima. ----------------------------- PM then it is -_- Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Apr 8 2009, 05:45 PM Thanks. ^^ Ima ih 354. :buljo: Posted by: Queen Arwen Apr 8 2009, 06:23 PM I ja bi PM :cry: I ako može, neka ljudi koji su neke letterse prevodili, a da se možda ne nalaze u Prijevodima, napišu ovdje njihove redne brojeve da se zna što da se prevodi, a što ne :yes: I bilo bi dobro da se onda usput i raspodijelimo tko će što :P Samo nam fali još dobrovoljaca Ajde, nije to tako teško, što je za vas prevesti jedno pisamce Posted by: Seth Apr 8 2009, 09:49 PM I ja sam voljan tog se primit, ne obecajem nista u vrlo skorom roku, ali ove godine -_- :P Letterse sam vec dobio, hvala za to odgovornoj osobi :hug: Posted by: taira Apr 8 2009, 09:58 PM ja :jumpy: ja :jumpy: ja :jumpy: ja imam i ROTK ispravci radni staž i rečenicu :yes: ili dvije? :unsure: ne sjećam se više :D P.S. Lettersi downloadani -_- Edited by taira on Apr 8 2009, 09:59 PM Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Apr 8 2009, 10:01 PM vi prevodite a ja cu, ovaj, pregledavat :girl: obecavam bit dobar Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Apr 8 2009, 10:03 PM Lettersi poslani QA. ^^ Posted by: Númellóte Apr 8 2009, 10:18 PM Ja ću počet prek ljeta. -_- Posted by: elentari Apr 9 2009, 10:45 AM hm ja bi isto mogla početi preko ljeta, i suppose ^_^ iako ne znam koliko je moj engleski dovoljan za takvo nešto, ali pokušat ću barem Posted by: azur Apr 10 2009, 03:59 PM Ej treba mi mala pomoć :D Može li mi neko prevesti slijedeće pojmove jer ja nisam siguran u njihov prijevod jer ne poznam to baš najbolje :( Aragorn's lay of Tinuviel, Sam Gamgee's allusions to the Silmaril and the Iron Crown, Elrond's account of Celebrimbor :booyah: Posted by: Seth Apr 10 2009, 04:06 PM Aragornova priča/pripovjest o Tinuviel, Aluzije na Silmaril i Željezo (ne znam u kojem smislu je ovdje Iron, ne znam od kud je izvučeno ovo) Sam Gamgee-a, Kruna, Elrondov pogled/iskaz/priča na/o Celebrimboru. No bilo bi korisno da kazes od kuda je to preuzeto jer je tesko prevesti nesto ovako bez konteksta u kojem je pisano i o cemu se tocno radi. Jer ovo mi nema smisla prevodit cak ni sto sam napisao dok ne znam cijelu recenicu :huh: Posted by: azur Apr 10 2009, 04:09 PM Preuzeto je iz History of Middle-earth Vol. 01 - The Book of Lost Tales Iz ove rečenice One quality which [The Lord of the Rings] has in abundance is the Beowulfian 'impression of depth', created just as in the old epic by songs and digressions like Aragorn's lay of Tinu- viel, Sam Gamgee's allusions to the Silmaril and the Iron Crown, Elrond's account of Celebrimbor, and dozens more. :D Nadam se da je pomoglo :rolleyes: Edited by azur on Apr 10 2009, 04:11 PM Posted by: Seth Apr 10 2009, 04:18 PM Ahaaaaa. Jedna kvaliteta koju LOTR ima u (iz)obilju je Beowulfski "dojam (ili utisak) dubine", stvoren baš kao u starim epovima pomoću pjesama i digresija kao što su Aragornova priča o Tinuviel, Sam Gamgeejeve aluzije na Silmaril i Željeznu Krunu, Elrondova priča o Celebrimboru i deseci (tucet zvuči čudno) drugih. Posted by: azur Apr 10 2009, 04:19 PM Hvala :booyah: Posted by: Shinobi Apr 11 2009, 01:41 PM To je u Hobitu jos i "prikrivenije"(npr. Nekromant), pa daje i neki "tamniji" ugođaj, kao u nekim dječjim pričama (osim što je ovdje većina onoga što se spominje stvarno i opisano - na razini djela). Bas daje utisak dubine, kao neka rubna priča, na samom početku(ili kraju) stvorene stvarnosti... Posted by: Aislinn Apr 13 2009, 12:31 PM ko šalje te letterse na PM? :girl: moj inbox nekako praznjikavo izgleda :unsure: Posted by: Ellin Apr 13 2009, 06:13 PM mozes ih skinut na portalu, u knjiznici. :yes: moras bit logirana, knjiznici ne mogu pristupit gosti. :yes: Posted by: Aislinn Apr 13 2009, 07:20 PM mentorice bivša, ti želiš reći da ti misliš da ja nisam logirana na portal koja uvreda :cry: Posted by: taira Apr 13 2009, 08:36 PM koji lettersi su prevedeni/prevode se? da se ne izmješamo svi Posted by: Aislinn Apr 13 2009, 08:47 PM jel neko vodi neku evidenciju o tome? :unsure: glavni za te prijevode :crazy: da njega/nju možemo zlostavljat s glupim pitanjima :jumpy: Posted by: Númellóte Apr 13 2009, 09:06 PM Pa još niko nije rekao što uopće radi. Ja ću ovdje staviti popis tko je zainteresiran i tko bi što uzeo. -_- Tak da što se tog tiče, samo mene pitajte :rofl: Posted by: Aislinn Apr 13 2009, 09:24 PM ok, znači you're the boss B) Posted by: Númellóte Apr 13 2009, 11:00 PM 1 To Edith Bratt 2 From a letter to Edith Bratt 27 November 1914 3 From a letter to Edith Bratt 26 November 1915 4 From a letter to Edith Bratt 2 March 1916 5 To G. B. Smith 6 To Mrs E. M. Wright 7 To the Electors of the R & B Professorship of Anglo-Saxon, University of Oxford 8 From a letter to the Vice Chancellor of Leeds University 9 To Susan Dagnall, George Allen & Unwin Ltd. 10 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 11 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 5 February 1937 12 To Allen & Unwin 13 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 14 To Allen & Unwin 15 To Allen & Unwin 16 To Michael Tolkien 17 To Stanley Unwin, Chairman of Allen & Unwin 18 From a letter to Stanley Unwin 23 October 1937 19 To Stanley Unwin 20 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 21 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 1 February 1938 22 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 23 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 24 To Stanley Unwin 25 To the editor of the 'Observer' 26 To Stanley Unwin 27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company 28 To Stanley Unwin 29 From a letter to Stanley Unwin 25 July 1938 30 To Rütten & Loening Verlag 31 To C.A.Furth, Allen & Unwin 32 To John Masefield 33 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 34 To Stanley Unwin 35 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 36 To C. A. Furth, Allen & Unwin 37 To Stanley Unwin 38 To Stanley Unwin 39 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 29 September 1940 40 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 6 October 1940 41 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 2 January 1941 42 To Michael Tolkien 43 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 6-8 March 1941 44 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 18 March 1941 45 To Michael Tolkien 46 From a draft to R. W. Chapman 26 November 1941 47 To Stanley Unwin 48 To C. S. Lewis 49 To C. S. Lewis (draft) 50 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 25 October 1943 51 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 27 October 1943 52 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 29 November 1943 53 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 54 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 8 January 1944 55 To Christopher Tolkien 56 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 1 March 1944 (FS 6) 57 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 30 March 1944 (FS 12) 58 To Christopher Tolkien 59 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 5 April 1944 (FS 14) 60 To Christopher Tolkien (airgraph) 61 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 18 April 1944 (FS 17) 62 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 23 April 1944 (FS 18) 63 To Christopher Tolkien 64 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 65 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 4 May 1944 (FS 21) 66 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 6 May 1944 (FS 22) 67 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 11 May 1944 (FS 23) 68 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 12 May 1944 (FS 24) 69 To Christopher Tolkien 70 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 71 To Christopher Tolkien (airgraph) 72 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 73 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 10 June 1944 (FS 30) 97 74 From a letter to Stanley Unwin 29 June 1944 75 To Christopher Tolkien 76 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 28 July 1944 (FS 39) 77 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 31 July 1944 (FS 41) 78 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 12 August 1944 (FS 43) 79 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 22 August 1944 (FS 45) 80 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 81 To Christopher Tolkien 82 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 83 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 6 October 1944 (FS 54) 84 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 85 From an airgraph to Christopher Tolkien 86 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 23 October 1944 (FS 57) 87 To Christopher Tolkien 88 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 28 October 1944 (FS 58) 89 To Christopher Tolkien 90 To Christopher Tolkien 91 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 92 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 18 December 1944 (FS 68) 93 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 24 December 1944 (FS 70) 94 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 95 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 18 January 1945 (FS 76) 96 To Christopher Tolkien 20 Northmoor Road, Oxford 97 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 11 February 1945 (FS 80) 98 To Stanley Unwin 99 To 'Michal' Williams, widow of Charles Williams 100 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 29 May 1945 101 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 3 June 1945 102 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 9 August 1945 103 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 11 October 1945 104 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 22 October 1945 105 To Sir Stanley Unwin 106 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 30 September 1946 107 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 7 December 1946 108 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 5 July 1947 109 To Sir Stanley Unwin 110 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 20 September 1947 111 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 21 September 1947 112 To Katherine Farrer 113 To C.S.Lewis 114 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 7 April 1948 115 To Katherine Farrer 116 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 5 August 1948 117 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 31 October 1948 118 To Hugh Brogan 119 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 28 February 1949 120 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 16 March 1949 121 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 13 July 1949 122 To Naomi Mitchison 123 From a draft to Milton Waldman 5 February 1950 124 To Sir Stanley Unwin 125 To Sir Stanley Unwin 126 To Milton Waldman (draft) 3 Manor Road, Oxford 127 To Sir Stanley Unwin 128 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 1 August 1950 129 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 10 September 1950 130 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 14 September 1950 131 To Milton Waldman 132 From a letter to John Tolkien 10 February 1952 133 To Rayner Unwin 134 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 29 August 1952 135 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 24 October 1952 136 To Rayner Unwin 137 To Rayner Unwin 138 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 4 August 1953 139 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 8 August 1953 140 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 17 August 1953 141 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 9 October 1953 99 142 To Robert Murray, SJ. 143 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 22 January 1954 144 To Naomi Mitchison 145 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 13 May 1954 146 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 3 June 1954 147 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 15 June 1954 148 From a letter to Katherine Farrer 7 August 1954 149 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 9 September 1954 150 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 18 September 1954 151 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 18 September 1954 152 From a letter to Rayner Heppenstall, BBC 22 September 1954 153 To Peter Hastings (draft) 154 To Naomi Mitchison 155 To Naomi Mitchison (draft) 156 To Robert Murray, SJ. (draft) 157 From a letter to Katherine Farrer 27 November 1954 158 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 2 December 1954 159 From a letter to Dora Marshall 3 March 1955 160 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 6 March 1955 161 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 14 April 1955 162 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 18 April 1955 163 To W. H. Auden 164 From a letter to Naomi Mitchison 29 June 1955 165 To the Houghton Mifflin Co. 166 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 22 July 1955 167 From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien 15 August 1955 168 To Richard Jeffery 169 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 11 September 1955 170 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 30 September 1955 171 To Hugh Brogan 172 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 12 October 1955 173 From a letter to Katherine Farrer 24 October 1955 174 To Lord Halsbury 175 From a letter to Mrs Molly Waldron 30 November 1955 176 From a letter to Naomi Mitchison 8 December 1955 177 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 8 December 1955 178 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 12 December 1955 179 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 14 December 1955 180 To 'Mr Thompson' [draft] 181 To Michael Straight [drafts] 182 From a letter to Anne Barrett, Houghton Mifflin Co. 183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King 184 To Sam Gamgee 185 From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien 19 March 1956 186 From a letter to Joanna de Bortadano (drafts) 187 From a letter to H. Cotton Minchin (draft) 188 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 3 April 1956 189 From a letter to Mrs M. Wilson 11 April 1956 190 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 3 July 1956 191 From a letter to Miss J. Bum (draft) 26 July 1956 192 From a letter to Amy Ronald 27 July 1956 193 From a letter to Terence Tiller 2 November 1956 194 To Terence Tiller 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford 195 From a letter to Amy Ronald 15 December 1956 196 From a letter to Katherine Fairer 21 March 1957 197 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 9 May 1957 198 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 19 June 1957 199 From a letter to Caroline Everett 24 June 1957 200 From a letter to Major R. Bowen 25 June 1957 201 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 7 September 1957 202 From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien 203 From a letter to Herbert Schiro 17 November 1957 204 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 7 December 1957 205 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 21 February 1958 206 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 8 April 1958 207 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 8 April 1958 208 From a letter to C. Ouboter, Voorhoeve en Dietrich, Rotterdam 10 April 1958 209 From a letter to Robert Murray, SJ. 4 May 1958 210 From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958] 211 To Rhona Beare 212 Draft of a continuation of the above letter (not sent) 213 From a letter to Deborah Webster 25 October 1958 214 To A. C. Nunn (draft) 215 To Walter Allen, New Statesman (drafts) 216 From a letter to the Deputy Registrar, University of Madras 12 August 1959 217 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 11 September 1959 218 To Eric Rogers 219 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 14 October 1959 220 From a letter to Naomi Mitchison 15 October 1959 221 From a letter to the First Assistant Registrar, Oxford University 24 November 1959 222 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 9 December 1959 223 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 31 July 1960 224 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 12 September 1960 225 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 10 December 1960 226 From a letter to Professor L. W. Forster 31 December 1960 227 From a letter to Mrs E. C. Ossen Drijver 5 January 1961 228 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 24 January 1961 229 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 23 February 1961 230 From a letter to Rhona Beare 8 June 1961 231 From a letter to Jane Neave 4 October 1961 232 From a letter to Joyce Reeves 4 November 1961 233 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 15 November 1961 234 To Jane Neave 235 From a letter to Mrs Pauline Gasch (Pauline Baynes) 6 December 1961 236 To Rayner Unwin 237 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 12 April 1962 238 From a letter to Jane Neave 18 July l962 239 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 20 July 1962 240 To Mrs Pauline Gasch (Pauline Baynes) 241 From a letter to Jane Neave 8-9 September 1962 242 From a letter to Sir Stanley Unwin 28 November 1962 243 To Michael Tolkien 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford 244 From a draft to a reader of The Lord of the Rings 245 To Rhona Beare 246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963 247 To Colonel Worskett 248 To Sir Stanley Unwin 249 From a letter to Michael George Tolkien 16 October 1963 250 To Michael Tolkien 76 Sandfield Road, Headington, Oxford 251 To Priscilla Tolkien 252 From a letter to Michael Tolkien (draft) 253 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 23 December 1963 254 To the Rev. Denis Tyndall 255 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar 5 March 1964 256 From a letter to Colin Bailey 13 May 1964 257 To Christopher Bretherton 258 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 2 August 1964 259 From a letter to Anne Barrett, Houghton Mifflin Co. 260 From a letter to Carey Biyton 16 August 1964 261 From a letter to Anne Barrett, Houghton Mifflin Co. 262 To Michael di Capua, Pantheon Books 263 From a letter to the Houghton Mifflin Co. 10 September 1964 264 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 11 September 1964 265 From a letter to David Kolb, S.J. 11 November 1964 266 From a letter to Michael George Tolkien 6 January 1965 267 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 9-10 January 1965 268 From a letter to Miss A. P. Northey 19 January 1965 269 From a letter to W. H. Auden 12 May 1965 270 To Rayner Unwin 271 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 25 May 1965 272 From a letter to Zillah Sherring 20 July 1965 273 From a letter to Nan C. Scott 21 July 1965 274 From a letter to the Houghton Mifflin Co. 28 July 1965 275 From a letter to W. H. Auden 4 August 1965 276 To Dick Plotz, 'Thain' of the Tolkien Society of America 277 To Rayner Unwin 12 September 1965 278 From a letter to Clyde S. Kilby 20 October 1965 279 From a letter to Michael George Tolkien 30 October 1965 280 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 8 November 1965 281 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 15 December 1965 282 From a letter to Clyde S. Kilby 18 December 1965 283 To Benjamin P. Indick 284 To W. H. Auden 285 From a letter to W. H. Auden 8 April 1966 286 From a letter to A. E. Couchman 27 April 1966 287 From a letter to Joy Hill, Allen & Unwin 10 May 1966 288 To Professor Norman Davis 289 From a letter to Michael George Tolkien 29 July 1966 290 From a letter to Michael George Tolkien 28 October 1966 291 To Walter Hooper 292 To Joy Hill, Allen & Unwin 293 From a letter to William Foster 29 December 1966 294 To Charlotte and Denis Plimmer 295 To W.H.Auden 296 To Rayner Unwin Hotel Miramar, Bournemouth 99 297 Drafts for a letter to 'Mr Rang' 298 To William Luther White 299 To Roger Lancelyn Green 300 From a letter to Walter Hooper 20 February 1968 301 From a letter to Donald Swann 29 February 1968 302 From a letter to Time-Life International Ltd. 2 May 1968 303 From a letter to Nicholas Thomas 6 May 1968 304 From a letter to Clyde S. Kilby 4 June 1968 305 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 26 June 1968 306 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 307 From a letter to Amy Ronald 14 November 1968 308 To Christopher Tolkien 309 From a letter to Amy Ronald 2 January 1969 310 To Camilla Unwin 311 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 31 July 1969 312 From a letter to Amy Ronald 16 November 1969 313 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 25 November 1969 314 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 15 December 1969 315 From a letter to Michael Tolkien 1 January 1970 316 From a letter to R. W. Burchfield 11 September 1970 317 From a letter to Amy Ronald All Hallows 1970 318 From a letter to Neil Ker 22 November 1970 319 From a letter to Roger Lancelyn Green 8 January 1971 320 From a letter to Mrs Ruth Austin 25 January 1971 321 From a letter to P. Rorke, S.J. 4 February 1971 322 From a letter to William Cater 18 March 1971 323 To Christopher Tolkien [19 Lakeside Road] 324 From a letter to Graham Tayar 4-5 June 1971 325 From a letter to Roger Lancelyn Green 17 July 1971 326 From a letter to Rayner Unwin 24 July 1971 327 From a letter to Robert H. Boyer 25 August 1971 328 To Carole Batten-Phelps (draft) [19 Lakeside Road] 329 From a letter to Peter Szabó Szentmihályi (draft) 330 From a letter to William Cater 1 November 1971 331 To William Cater [Miramar Hotel, Bournemouth] 332 To Michael Tolkien 333 To Rayner Unwin Merton College 334 To Rayner Unwin 335 From a letter to Michael Salmon 18 May 1972 336 From a letter to Sir Patrick Browne 23 May 1972 337 From a letter to 'Mr Wrigley' 25 May 1972 338 From a letter to Fr. Douglas Carter 6[?] June 1972 339 To the Editor of the Daily Telegraph 340 From a letter to Christopher Tolkien 11 July 1972 341 From a letter to Marjorie Incledon 17 September 1972 342 From a letter to Mrs Meriel Thurston 9 November 1972 343 From a letter to Sterling Lanier 21 November 1972 344 From a letter to Edmund Meskys 23 November 1972 345 To Mrs Meriel Thurston 346 From a letter to Lyie Leach 13 December 1972 99 347 To Richard Jeffery 348 From a letter to Mrs Catharine Findlay 6 March 1973 349 From a letter to Mrs E. R. Ehrardt 8 March 1973 350 To C. L. Wiseman 351 To Christopher Tolkien 352 From a letter to Ungfrú Aðalsteinsdottir 5 June 1973 353 From a letter to Lord Halsbury 4 August 1973 354 To Priscilla Tolkien To je popis svih pisama. Molim da se dobrovoljci izjasne što će prevoditi da se ovdje editira. :eureka: Posted by: Seth Apr 13 2009, 11:37 PM Mozes to puknut i u prvi post topica onda, samo editiraj Menela. Ja cu se javljat kako koje krenem, trenutno nece bit nis od toga, guzva :silly: Posted by: Númellóte Apr 13 2009, 11:58 PM done -_- Posted by: Seth Apr 14 2009, 12:09 AM Wunderbar -_- Posted by: Lalaith en Noldor Apr 14 2009, 02:07 PM Ja bih mogla probati prevesti nesto :unsure: Ali tek nakon sto skola zavrsi :yes: Jesu li u tom popisu sva pisma ili samo ona neprevedena? I zar nije i Elrond nesto bio prevodio? :unsure: Posted by: elrond Apr 14 2009, 02:51 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- I zar nije i Elrond nesto bio prevodio? :unsure: ----------------------------- jesam, istina je, prevodio sam, ali uvijek u interesu postanja na boardu :exl: dakle, nikad nije bilo ciljano na prijevod kao takav, namjerno intencionalno ili profesionalno :no: čudim se što takvo što nisu stariji memberi objasnili, ili admini. to je bio prijevod za potrebe postanja na boardu, ništa više, ništa manje. previše poštujem Tolkiena da bih se profesionalno upustio u takvo što, uostalom to sam više puta i objasnio. Posted by: Seth Apr 14 2009, 09:31 PM To je istina, daleko smo od profesionalnog, ali bar za ovako neke potrebe Boarda i portala je ok i korisno, slazem se :yes: Posted by: elrond Apr 15 2009, 09:38 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- To je istina, daleko smo od profesionalnog, ali bar za ovako neke potrebe Boarda i portala je ok i korisno, slazem se :yes: ----------------------------- da nebi bilo nesporazuma ponovit ću još jednom....do iduće prilike :roflmao: u početku bijaše riječ i riječ bijaše Tolkien :rofl: , počeli smo postati ponajprije o LOTR-u, to se vremenom proširilo i na ostala Tolkienova djela koja su kako znate često mjenjana, likovi su imali svoju evoluciju, uzročno-posljedična zbivanja i sl.....i tad se ukazala potreba kod argumentiranja stavova, da se isti stavovi potkrijepe Tolkienovim riječima.....i tako je započelo, no bitno je reći da sve što se tad radilo, radilo se isključivo za potrebe postanja na boardu. nitko nije pomišljao profesionalno se baciti na prijevođenje T. tekstova, arhaizama i sl.....dakle, radilo se u dobroj volji da se znanja o T. djelu i svijetu ME, koji poznajemo prošire, nadopune, da bismo imali kompletniju sliku, što se doista i što je još bitnije, zašto događalo :exl: mnogima takvo što nije odgovaralo. znanja o Tolkienu za njih su počinjala i završavala s LOTR-om, Hobbitom i Silmarillionom.....to je bilo T. sve drugo su proglašavali bogohulnim, smetalačkim unošenjem nemira. i tako je počela bitka za istinu o T. ona još i danas traje u ovom ili onom obliku.....uglavnom, oni koji su tvrdili da je poznavanje T. u gabaritima nabrojenih djela, danas su puno tiši, ali još uvijek vrlo, vrlo nezadovoljni, potsjećaju me ne inkviziciju, dominus kanus, božje pse, govorim općenito o situaciji na hrvatskom webu. istina o T. djelu se polako, mučno probija.....trebat će još vremena, ali bitno je da je počelo. :yes: danas, kao i jučer, tvrdim da za poznavanje T. djela potrebno je pročitati i shvatiti pored gore nabrojenih 12 knjiga Povijesti Međuzemlja, Tolkienova pisma, Nedovršene pripovijesti, Hurinovu djecu, kao i poznavati djela ljudi koji se dugi niz godina bave tolkienovim svijetom , Rober Foster, primjerice.... upustiti se u prijevod T. djela velik je i zahtjevan posao, kojem su bez ljutnje i potcjenjivanja ikoga dorasli timovi prevoditelja, stručnjaka svakovrsnih (ima ih N. Antičević i Algoritam...), entuzijazam fanova po mom dubokom uvjerenju NIJE dovoljan da bi se kvalitetno napravio prevoditeljski posao, osim naravno ako nije kao i dosad za postanje na boardu. Izaći pred lice javnosti, znači i odgovornost :exl: potrebna je i nužna kvaliteta. jedan ili nekoliko fanova ne mogu osigurati potrebnu kvalitetu. naravno, to je moje mišljenje, što ne znači da svima onima koji se upuste u prijevod Tolkienovih djela ne želim od srca svako dobro i puno uspjeha. dapače, želim im puno uspjeha u njihovu poslu. Neka su Valari sa vama tijekom prevoditeljskog posla. Edited by elrond on Apr 15 2009, 10:18 AM Posted by: BalrogOfMorgoth Oct 3 2010, 11:15 AM Ovaj, ja sam poceo prevoditi HoME VI svezak i gotov sam s predgovorom, ali sam poslao Valu da vidi što treba prepraviti i krenuo sam na prvo poglavlje :girl: sad me zanima jel netko to vec prevodio da ne prevodim ja za ništa :nemanpojma: Posted by: Númellóte Oct 3 2010, 11:21 AM Koliko ja znam, nije nitko :yes: Ali može bit da mi je promaklo :ph34r: Edited by Númellóte on Oct 3 2010, 12:22 PM Posted by: Gandalf-great Oct 3 2010, 03:59 PM @ balrog, a nije to malo preambiciozno? ja nisam pročito home, pa ne mogu garantirat, ali tolkien baš nije među piscima koji imaju male vokabular ili gramatički jednostavne rečenice. Jedno je čitati na engleskom, a drugo prevoditi, šta ne? :nemanpojma: Posted by: BalrogOfMorgoth Oct 3 2010, 04:08 PM Pa bar cu probat :P Vidjet cu sto ce boardovci rec i ako bude ok nastavljam :nemanpojma: Posted by: Gandalf-great Oct 3 2010, 04:10 PM don't get me wrong ja u potpunosti podržavam, ja se osobno ne bi usudio da se ne izblamiram pred cijelim boardom XD nadam se da će prijevod biti supač! možda ga uspiješ i prodat nekoj knjižari B) Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Oct 3 2010, 05:11 PM Ja sam takodjer prevodila sa 13. :P Doduse, moj izbor je bio Kingova Misery, ali da, dodje na isto. :dance: Ako te Balrog lektorira, to moze biti samo izvrsno. :wub: Nadam se da ces ti, ako se nastavis baviti prevodjenjem, biti jedan od onih rijetkih hrvatskih prevoditelja koji valjaju ista. :drama: Posted by: Valarauco ramainen Oct 3 2010, 06:22 PM po ovome sto sam za sad preletio, Mlado Morgijevo ima triput bolji stil hrvatske recenice od crnkovica -_- i to samo na kratak pregled :eureka: cak i ako bude masa gresaka koje bude trebalo popravljat, prevodit ce sve dok ga to veseli, makar se nigdje i ne prodalo -_- ko prvo, to je odlicna vjezba za ubuduce....rijetko se srece osoba njegovih godina koja toliko MOŽE vec sada :wub: napravit cemo mi facu od njega, ne zvao se ja ono komplicirano ime koje mi se sad ne da pisat, iako je zapravo, sad kad malo bolje razmislim, visestruko krace od ovoga sto sam upravo nadrljio u objasnjenje i jos uvijek drljim ne vjerujuci zapravo sto pisem i kako ne mogu prestat :buljo: umoran sam :ph34r: radio sam 25 sati u komadu :doh: i da rezimiramo, ja sam impresioniran :notworthy: Posted by: The Horse And The Rider Oct 3 2010, 06:31 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- po ovome sto sam za sad preletio, Mlado Morgijevo ima triput bolji stil hrvatske recenice od crnkovica -_- ----------------------------- :dance: *mase malom navijackom zastavicom u Balgorovim bojama za Balroga juniora i Balroga.. um. Balroga. * Posted by: narsil Oct 3 2010, 07:26 PM Jel cemo to imati napokon normalan prijevod? Go MM go MM go MM Posted by: BalrogOfMorgoth Oct 4 2010, 09:33 AM ------------ QUOTE ---------- makar se nigdje i ne prodalo -_- ----------------------------- Kakvo crno prodavanje? :unsure: Ja to radim za sebe i one na boardu koji su voljni čitati :nemanpojma: Mislim, da mi uvale koju hiljadarku naravno da bi uzeo :roflmao: Posted by: Gandalf-great Oct 4 2010, 01:36 PM inače, ja bi vrlo rado čito home na hrv, ima gdje?? mislim, kolko kužim, balrogofmorgoth sad prevodi 4. knjigu a ispred su još tri ili?? BIG EDIT: neke pogreškice XD sad sam sam skužio da je topic iznad prijevodi membera XD Edited by Gandalf-great on Oct 4 2010, 01:38 PM Posted by: elrond Oct 9 2010, 06:28 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- Ovaj, ja sam poceo prevoditi HoME VI svezak i gotov sam s predgovorom, ali sam poslao Valu da vidi što treba prepraviti i krenuo sam na prvo poglavlje :girl: sad me zanima jel netko to vec prevodio da ne prevodim ja za ništa :nemanpojma: ----------------------------- recite mi, je li ovo neka loša šala!? obzirom na ovaj post: ------------ QUOTE ---------- BalrogOfMorgoth   Posted: Oct 8 2010, 03:18 PM 11307 Pa nemaju bas svi volje, a ni vremena odgovarati na svacija pitanja conf44.gif Iskreno, ja sam znao odgovor, ali mi se nije dalo tipkati ph34r.gif  , pa nisam odgovorio... Ne vdim tu problem, a uostalom Serpens i nije toliko redovit member, pa joj nece ni smetati to sto nije brzo dobila odgovor ----------------------------- ispravite me ako griješim, ali shvatit ćete....da baš nemam puno riječi, nedostaje mi teksta, da bih ovo ozbiljno shvatio nakon svega. u svakom slučaju, svaki prijevod je dobrodošao. B) Posted by: BalrogOfMorgoth Oct 9 2010, 08:07 PM To je nesto sasvim drugo :sigh: :drama: Ja sam se krivo izrazio, sto se tice toga :facepalm: Drugo je imat volje prevodit nesto, a drugo odgovarat na pitanja na koja znas da ce netko odgovoriti ;) Vidim da se razilazimo u misljenjima pa je nepotrebno nastavit diskusiju :no: Posted by: BalrogOfMorgoth Nov 7 2010, 07:21 PM ------------ QUOTE ---------- ne stignem sad citat, nakratko sam uletio doh.gif Je li ovo ona verzija koji si meni dao, il si jos radio na tome? unsure.gif ----------------------------- Radio sam još i neke greške ispravio ( ali naravno bit će ih i tu <_< ) Posted by: elrond Jan 18 2011, 03:24 PM u prijevodu na ekavici za Simbelmine, koristi se naziv "Večnoset", pa molim, ako tko zna objasniti korijen, odnosno značenje prijevoda riječi. Posted by: Númellóte Jan 18 2011, 10:23 PM Mislimda si u krivi topic postao :unsure: ovo su prijevodi membera, ne onoga ko je actually to prevodio u originalu. No dobro, odgovorit ću ovdje -_- Symbelmyne ili simbelmyne znači besmrtan. Večnoset bi onda trebala biti skraćenica od vječno sjećanje, po meni -_- Dakle nešto što je vječno, pa je onda i besmrtno -_- . Ako netko drugi misli drugačije, molim da se prebaci u Jezike i tamo nastavi. Ili u Silm :silly: edit: ne u Silm :bonk: Edited by Númellóte on Jan 18 2011, 11:44 PM Posted by: Amarië Vëannë Nov 10 2016, 12:33 AM Kad ćemo opet prevoditi HOooooooME? :cry: end

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