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Tolkienova Poezija, poetski opus najdražeg nam Tolkiena
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Beregond Ancalimon
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 12:11 AM 785268





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QUOTE (Âru n’Adűnâi @ Aug 27 2007, 12:30 AM)
Ali moje zapažanje je da ostale pjesme izgledaju puno jednostavnije na engleskom nego na hrvatskom.
I ljepše, naravno. Dobro su prevedene, ali po meni prijevod nije ono što je pisac napisao već posve nova pjesma.

edit: dobro prevedene, ne lijepo. bonk.gif

Couldn't agree more...

Mozda se moze nekom teskom mukom prenjeti smisao pjesme, ali nema te tecnosti i ljepote.

Istina, ne znaju svi engleski, no zovite me nadobudnim kad kazem da ga se isplati nauciti samo za citanje Tolkiena.
 
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Galadriel Artanis
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 08:30 AM 785287


Lady of the Golden Wood


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QUOTE (Ellin @ Aug 26 2007, 11:22 PM)
istina. tongue.gif


ali opcenito govoreci, mislim da je poezija najteza za prevodjenje, jos kad moras pogodit i ritam, i znacenje, i rimu... doh.gif

Pjesme je prevodio Neven Antičević a ne Crnković i to jako dugo i temeljito yes.gif

U onom intervjuu koji nisam stigla dovršiti zbog frke na poslu a onda zaboravila na njega blush.gif imam njegov opis prevođenja pjesama bonk.gif

Obećavam da ću uskoro to dovršiti - iako conf44.gif koji povod objavljivanja da uzmislim no.gif
 
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Galadriel Artanis
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 08:34 AM 785289


Lady of the Golden Wood


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QUOTE (Âru n’Adűnâi @ Aug 26 2007, 11:30 PM)
edit: dobro prevedene, ne lijepo. bonk.gif

Antičević mi je objasnio kako ih je i zašto prevodio

Prvo je prevodio doslovno značenje pjesme yes.gif
Onda je pustio da pjesma malo odstoji yes.gif
Zatim je "lovio" ritam pjesme (jer osim značenja riječi u pjesmama je užasno bitan i ritam) yes.gif
Onda ih je pustio da odstoje nkoliko mjeseci i onda ih je opet uspoređivao sa originalom i popravljao ono što mu se činilo da nije dobro yes.gif

Uglavnom, bio je to težak i dugotrajan proces ali je poprilično dobro uspio booyah.gif

Pjesme po kvaliteti prijevoda poprilično odskaču od Crnkovićevog ostatka knjiga yes.gif
 
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turgon
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 08:36 AM 785291


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QUOTE (Galadriel Artanis @ Aug 27 2007, 09:33 AM)
Pjesme po kvaliteti prijevoda poprilično odskaču od Crnkovićevog ostatka knjiga yes.gif

ok, s ovim se jako slazhem, to chak i ja vidim, a meni promichu takve stvari redovno, al onda se u knjigama bash jako vidi da su to prevodile dvije osobe. tako da, kad to chitam, na prijelazu teksta u pjesmu, i obrnuto, uvijek mislim na to, tako da sama radnja, i tekst i pjesma padaju u drugi plan... to mi je malo bed yes.gif
 
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Galadriel Artanis
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 08:43 AM 785301


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QUOTE (Beregond Ancalimon @ Aug 27 2007, 12:10 AM)
Mozda se moze nekom teskom mukom prenjeti smisao pjesme, ali nema te tecnosti i ljepote.

Tu se ne bih složila - ritam hrvatskog prijevoda je isti kao i originala - čak mu je i engleski izdavač čestitao na uspješnom prijevodu pjesama yes.gif

Druga je stvar što je naš jezik malo "grublji" od engleskog ali to nije krivica prevoditelja a_ne.gif
 
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Arador Elear
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 09:34 AM 785332


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opet se nekako vrtimo oko engleske, hrvatske verzije stvari...
shto se tiche pjesama, hrvatski je grublji jezik, ali i u nashoj knjizhevnosti ima prekrasnih pjevnih (da tako kazhem) pjesama, tako da sam se na hrvatske verzije lotr pjesama navikao vishe nego na prijevod cijele knjige(Lotr) na hrvatski....dakako da najvishe drzhim stranu original engleskim stvarima, pa tako i pjesmama Lotr-a.
 
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Morfiwen
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 09:59 AM 785341


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Dodala sam izvore u prvi post, slobodno predlažite još stranica s Tolkienovom poezijom jumpy.gif

Over the Misty Mountains Cold

Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
To dungeons deep and caverns old,
We must away, ere break of day,
To seek our pale enchanted gold.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells,
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gleaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught,
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.

On silver necklaces they strung
The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
The dragon-fire, on twisted wire
They meshed the light of moon and sun.

Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
To dungeons deep and caverns old,
We must away, ere break of day,
To claim our long-forgotten gold.

Goblets they carved there for themselves,
And harps of gold, where no man delves
There lay they long, and many a song
Was sung unheard by men or elves.

The pines were roaring on the heights,
The wind was moaning in the night,
The fire was red, it flaming spread,
The trees like torches blazed with light.

The bells were ringing in the dale,
And men looked up with faces pale.
The dragon's ire, more fierce than fire,
Laid low their towers and houses frail.

The mountain smoked beneath the moon.
The dwarves, they heard the tramp of doom.
They fled the hall to dying fall
Beneath his feet, beneath the moon.

Far over the Misty Mountains grim,
To dungeons deep and caverns dim,
We must away, ere break of day,
To win our harps and gold from him!

The wind was on the withered heath,
But in the forest stirred no leaf:
There shadows lay be night or day,
And dark things silent crept beneath.

The wind came down from mountains cold,
And like a tide it roared and rolled.
The branches groaned, the forest moaned,
And leaves were laid upon the mould.

The wind went on from West to East;
All movement in the forest ceased.
But shrill and harsh across the marsh,
Its whistling voices were released.

The grasses hissed, their tassels bent,
The reeds were rattling--on it went.
O'er shaken pool under heavens cool,
Where racing clouds were torn and rent.

It passed the Lonely Mountain bare,
And swept above the dragon's lair:
There black and dark lay boulders stark,
And flying smoke was in the air.

It left the world and took its flight
Over the wide seas of the night.
The moon set sale upon the gale,
And stars were fanned to leaping light.

Under the Mountain dark and tall,
The King has come unto his hall!
His foe is dead, the Worm of Dread,
And ever so his foes shall fall!

The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong.
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

On silver necklaces they strung
The light of stars, on crowns they hung
The dragon-fire, from twisted wire
The melody of harps they wrung.

The mountain throne once more is freed!
O! Wandering folk, the summons heed!
Come haste! Come haste! Across the waste!
The king of freind and kin has need.

Now call we over the mountains cold,
'Come back unto the caverns old!'
Here at the gates the king awaits,
His hands are rich with gems and gold.

The king has come unto his hall
Under the Mountain dark and tall.
The Worm of Dread is slain and dead,
And ever so our foes shall fall!

Farewell we call to hearth and hall!
Though wind may blow and rain may fall,
We must away, ere break of day
Far over the wood and mountain tall.

To Rivendell, where Elves yet dwell
In glades beneath the misty fell.
Through moor and waste we ride in haste,
And whither then we cannot tell.

With foes ahead, behind us dread,
Beneath the sky shall be our bed,
Until at last our toil be passed,
Our journey done, our errand sped.

We must away! We must away!
We ride before the break of day!
 
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Meneldil
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:01 PM 785432


Perfection.


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Evo neke stvari koje sam našao na netu... namjeravam kasnije procitati i sve, pa sam vidjeti najbolje dijelove biggrin.gif Ali ovo je stvarno nevjerojatno wub.gif

Beren i Lúthien se spuštaju u Angband:

Into the vast and echoing gloom,________________3850
more dread than many-tunnelled tomb
in Labyrinthine pyramid
where everlasting death is hid,
down awful corridors that wind
down to a menace dark enshrined;_______________3845
down to the mountain's roots profound,
devoured, tormented, bored and ground
by seething vermin spawned of stone;
down to the depths they went alone.
The arch behind of twilit shade________________3850
they saw recede and dwindling fade;
the thunderous forges' rumour grew,
a burning wind there roaring blew
foul vapours up from gaping holes.
Huge shapes there stood like carven trolls_____3855
enormous hewn of blasted rock
to forms that mortal likeness mock;
monstrous and menacing, entombed,
at every turn they silent loomed
in fitful glares that leaped and died._________3860
There hammers clanged, and tongues there cried
with sound like smitten stone; there wailed
faint from far under, called and failed
amid the iron clink of chain
voices of captives put to pain.________________3865


Neki komad necega... što god bilo, super je tongue.gif

With winding horns winter hunted
in the weeping woods, wild and ruthless;
sleet came slashing and slanting hail
from glowering heaven grey and sunless,
whistling whiplash whirled by tempest.
The floods were freed, and fallow waters
sweeping seaward, swollen, angry,
filled with flotsam, foaming, turbid,
passed in tumult. The tempest died.
 
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Meneldil
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:15 PM 785441


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Upc, slucajno sam obrisao uvod u post tongue.gif
Ovo izgleda blesavo na prvi pogled, ali zapravo je nevjerojatna roflmao.gif tongue.gif


The fat cat on the mat
  may seem to dream
of nice mice that suffice
  for him, or cream;
but he free, maybe,
  walks in thought
unbowed, proud, where loud
  roared and fought
his kin, lean and slim,
  or deep in den
in the East feasted on beasts
  and tender men.
The giant lion with iron
  claw in paw,
and huge ruthless tooth
  in gory jaw;
the pard dark-starred,
  fleet upon feet,
that oft soft from aloft
  leaps upon his meat
where woods loom in gloom --
  far now they be,
  fierce and free,
  and tamed is he;
but fat cat on the mat
  kept as a pet
  he does not forget.


Edit: mrmlj dry.gif

Edited by Meneldil - Aug 27 2007, 04:15 PM
 
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elrond
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:19 PM 785445


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a da stavljate izvore od kud su stihovi, linkove i sl?
 
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Meneldil
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:23 PM 785452


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QUOTE (elrond @ Aug 27 2007, 04:18 PM)
a da stavljate izvore od kud su stihovi, linkove i sl?

Nije baš uvijek jednostavno tongue.gif
Prva je iz Lays of Belerianda, za drugu ne znam, ali vjerojatno isto, a za trecu nemam pojma...
 
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Âru n’Adűnâi
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:36 PM 785459


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QUOTE (Meneldil @ Aug 27 2007, 04:00 PM)
Beren i Lúthien se spuštaju u Angband:

Kako atmosfericno shocking2.gif Pre dobro!

QUOTE
The fat cat on the mat

Ovo je više igra rijeci, ali užitak za čitati yes.gif
 
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Erchamion Naéwe
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 03:52 PM 785466


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Nesto u cemu sam sudjelovao s jos par ljudi prosle godine u Poetry contests, pa tu postam sto smo sklepali flex.gif :

A Light From the Shadows Shall Spring

Silence,
Hangs in the wood,
Fills the tomb of ancients,
My destiny lies, veiled in dust.
Crownless.

Shivered,
Steel of Andor,
Faithful lineage falls,
A white tree withers where I dream,
And hope.

How lost,
How dark the ways,
Walking in shadows grey,
An ember in the choking ash,
Struggling.

Your kiss,
Upon my brow,
Your tears that trickled down,
Oh Evenstar, sweet memory,
Heart's light.

The dawn,
Awakes from dreams,
How proud our banner floats,
Upon the winds of Destiny -
A crown.


***

The Crownless Again Shall be King

Gaunt shadow treads the wild ways,
Deep secrets haunt a noble gaze,
Doom's chords over fair verses ring,
"The crownless again shall be king."

A name foretold his was to be,
The gift, the weight, of destiny,
The legend's end his part to sing,
"The crownless again shall be king."

One day upon a verdant hill,
As if in dream, his heart did thrill,
To hear the breath of living spring,
"The crownless again shall be king."

The price of love can cut so deep,
To fly from now, for e'er to keep,
Trust to strengthen, and souls take wing,
"The crownless again shall be king."

Through darkest tides, their battle raged,
But light of stars no night holds caged.
Upon the mount, the bells did ring:
"The crownless again shall be king."


Edited by Erchamion Naéwe - Aug 27 2007, 04:54 PM
 
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Beregond Ancalimon
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 04:39 PM 785472





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QUOTE (Galadriel Artanis @ Aug 27 2007, 09:42 AM)
Druga je stvar što je naš jezik malo "grublji" od engleskog ali to nije krivica prevoditelja a_ne.gif

s ovim si odgovorila skoro sve. Nigdje ja ne krivim prevoditelje, samo velim da nije ista stvar. Opet se povlaci stvar ukusa. Nekome se mozda vise dopada hrv. prijevod nego li mozda original... ima nas svakakvih.

@Erch - odlicne pjesme, posebice The Crownless Again Shall be King, svaka cast! Nego u prvoj, to bi trebao Aragorn "pjevati"? S obzirom da se spominje Evenstar i tak to...
 
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Erchamion Naéwe
Posted: Aug 27 2007, 06:03 PM 785485


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QUOTE (Beregond Ancalimon @ Aug 27 2007, 05:38 PM)

@Erch - odlicne pjesme, posebice The Crownless Again Shall be King, svaka cast! Nego u prvoj, to bi trebao Aragorn "pjevati"? S obzirom da se spominje Evenstar i tak to...

Tema je bila Aragorn i posebno zadane forme: Kyrielle i Cinq-Cinquain.

CINQ-CINQUAIN: "From the French, meaning "five groupings of five." The Cinq-Cinquain consists of five Cinquain. Each has five lines, with two, four, six, eight, and two syllables, respectively, with twenty-two syllables per stanza.
No, the ugly chick is a swan"
uzeto s www.Sol-Magazine.org

KYRIELLE: "The Kyrielle is a French form written in quatrains. Each quatrain contains a repeated line or phrase as a refrain. It has a meter usually composed of eight syllables per line but it can be varied. There is no limit to the number of stanzas, but three is generally the minumum.
The normal structure is a/a/b/B, c/c/b/B, d/d/b/B. with B being the repeated line.
A varied structure could be a/b/a/B, c/b/c/B, d/b/d/B. etc.
or even a second line that did not rhyme at all. a/e/a/Z etc."
uzeto s http://members.optusnet.com.au/kazoom/poet...y/kyrielle.html
 
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