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The Art of War u Tolkienovim djelima, bitke, strategije, vojske, oruzja...
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Imrahil
Posted: Mar 23 2011, 07:03 PM 1169532


Nevermore


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offtopic.gif
 
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Picard
Posted: Apr 24 2011, 02:44 PM 1176083


Ranger of the North


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Da malo osvježim ovo...

Malo sam njuškao po internetu tražeći što sam mogao o dometu lukova korištenih u Ardi.

Ukratko, lista je ovakva:

Čelični Numenorski - 585 metara
Gondorski - 183 m
Rohanski - 114 m
Orčki - 91 - 137 m (Uruk-hai su koristili duge drvene lukove, tako da su ti vjerojatno bili usporedivi sa Gondorskim)
Noldorski - 228 m
Istočnjački - 457 m

Volio bih ako tko može to provjeriti, nisam siguran imam li svu potrebnu literaturu.
 
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DarkMayhem
Posted: Apr 24 2011, 04:11 PM 1176092


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malo mi je čudno da su istočnjački lukovi toliko jaki
 
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elrond
Posted: Apr 25 2011, 01:10 PM 1176189


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QUOTE (Picard @ Apr 24 2011, 01:44 PM)

Volio bih ako tko može to provjeriti, nisam siguran imam li svu potrebnu literaturu.

pomoglo bi da postaviš koji link yes.gif .
 
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Picard
Posted: Apr 25 2011, 04:44 PM 1176203


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Problem je što sam ja to skupio Bog-zna-otkud, i zapisao na papir, tako da nemam linkove. No dometi od pola kilometra su mogući, bar kad usporedimo sa nekim lukovima iz "stvarnog" života:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow

Sjećam se jos da je na drugom forumu (StarfleetJedi.net) spomenuto da Numenorski luk ima domet od pola milje; to bi bilo 800 metara ako je tocno.
 
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elrond
Posted: Apr 26 2011, 05:03 PM 1176378


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QUOTE (Picard @ Apr 25 2011, 03:44 PM)
to bi bilo 800 metara ako je tocno.

804,5 metara wink.gif .
 
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DarkMayhem
Posted: Apr 26 2011, 05:52 PM 1176391


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QUOTE (Picard @ Apr 25 2011, 05:44 PM)
No dometi od pola kilometra su mogući, bar kad usporedimo sa nekim lukovima iz "stvarnog" života:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow

nisam ja mislio zbog toga jer je moguće ili ne, nego zbog same snage. nije lako takav luk napeti
 
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Picard
Posted: Apr 27 2011, 06:11 PM 1176551


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Kazem, ne znam odakle mi, moguce je cak da sam mu "pripisao" osobine Mongolskog luka, iako sam najvjerojatnije skinuo sa nekakve wikije.

EDIT: Zato ovo i pitam, jer bih volio te "statistike" provjeriti u knjigama.

Edited by Picard - Apr 27 2011, 06:12 PM
 
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Picard
Posted: Apr 29 2011, 05:38 PM 1176882


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Zna li tko gdje naći točan domet Numenorskog luka, a da je baš od Tolkiena, a ne sa wikije i slično? Ako može i citat.
 
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Picard
Posted: May 21 2011, 10:06 PM 1180338


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Moze li mi netko naci ilustracije gondorskog (i drugih) oklopa, ali da su po knjizi, ne po filmu?

EDIT: Može i opise.

EDIT2: Sjetio sam se da u Povratku Kralja piše da je Imrahil provjerio ima li Eowyn daha prinjevši joj "jarko uglačan oklop na svojoj ruci/šaci"... mislim da to sugerira pločasti oklop, barem što se plemstva tiče. Sa druge strane, Pippinova odora Stražara Citadele je čisti pancir... malo me zbunjuje.

EDIT3: Provjerio sam još jednom LotR i posudio Nedovršene Pripovijesti... i Gondorci iz Trećeg i oni iz Drugog doba su koristili pancir.

Edited by Picard - Sep 10 2011, 02:45 PM
 
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Picard
Posted: Aug 17 2011, 08:30 AM 1193918


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Evo nešto što sam razradio za StarfleetJedi.net (link na thread here: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtop...&p=35153#p35153 ):

QUOTE
But they spent 3000 years in Numenor, at least 2000 years in complete peace. And as far as I can remember, when Numenor went to assault Valar (granted, it was an all-out mobilization) it was said to have the greatest host ever assembled. Wikipedia gives Morgoth's host in final battle of First Age to be around 1 000 000 to 1 500 000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armies_and_ho...e-earth_warfare

If Numenorean military in full-scale mobilization exceeded that, then standard total manpower might be 100 000 to 200 000.

And as for how good soldiers Numenoreans are... Orcs on Gladden fields had 10:1 numerical advantage, and were helped by favourable terrain, element of surprise (at least in first engagement) and by power of the Ring; yet they were said to have suffered so heavy casualties that they did not dare to repeat such action ever again. Mind you, it was mostly a melee fight (Isildur had only 20-odd archers) and yet it seems that Numenoreans inflicted casualties on orcs that went from 5:1 to 8:1 ratio - that is, 5 to 8 Orks killed for every single Numenorean (I'd say that more likely range is from 7:1 to 9:1, since half an army lost probably would not cripple them) - not to mention that Numenoreans were surrounded.

----

Land area of Numenor was around 160 000 square miles - or 400 000 square kilometers. In 1025 Byzantine Empire had population of 12 000 000 and land area of 1 200 000 square kilometers. Now, Numenor was far more technologically advanced than Byzantum at that point, as well as enjoying longtime peace (at least in mainland) so two to three times population density is not unbeleivable - that gives population from 8 to 12 million.

On the other hand, it might be better to use Roman Empire - in 25BC, it had population density of 20.7 inhabitants per square kilometer. If we allow for better agricultural techniques on part of Numenoreans, plus way better climate - it was said by Tolkien that Numenorean climate was made by Valar to be "optimal" - we might assume up to 30 - 40 inhabitants per square kilometer, thus giving population of 12 to 16 million.

Now, we have three ballparks - 8 million, 12 million and 16 milion. Latter two are more likely, as Numenor seems to have been originally modelled after Roman Empire, with traces of middle-American empires later on.

Augustus' army had 25 legions - 150 000 men in total - plus same number of auxillia. There are things in Tolkien's works that mention Numenorean army also using native auxillia troops, especially horsemen, as Numenoreans were foot soldiers - one more paralell with Roman Empire, supporting my Rome-based population estimates (Byzantine armies were primarly heavy-cavalry based, especially later on). Population of Roman Empire at that time is estimated to 56.8 million on Wikipedia; however, at that time, Rome was at peace, which Numenor was not. On the other hand, wartime Roman army during Augustus (in Civil war) numbered 60 legions, for 360 000 men, and prbably same number of auxillia.

So, Roman army estimates are 158 to 379 men per legionnaire - however, as auxillia came from all over Empire, as legions did, better estimate is 89 to 190 men per soldier.

Thus, professional Numenorean army is probably around 63 000 to 180 000 soldiers for "standard" Numenorean army, plus unknown number of auxilliaries from their overseas colonies - althought I doubt that number of auxilliaries was much greater than Numenorean home army. So 130 000 to 400 000 total military (without full-scale mobilization) is reasonable.

If we take full-scale mobilization to produce 1 soldier per 10 to 15 people (reasonable given their long lifespan and how long they remained in "strength of body and mind - even lower values may be possible), we get 800 000 to 1.6 million soldiers for maximum possible size of Numenorean military (figures for Numenor alone), plus auxilliaries, which might add some 500 000 to 1 million men more at least.
 
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elrond
Posted: May 24 2017, 08:41 AM 1243477


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esej o Tolkienu i upotrebi željeza u njegovu djelu, autor Parick Curry:


http://www.patrickcurry.co.uk/papers/Iron-...-Iron-Crown.pdf

Dr Patrick Curry is Lecturer in Religious Studies at the University of Kent. His most recent books are Ecological Ethics: An Introduction and Defending Middle-Earth: Tolkien, Myth and Modernity. He lives in London.

http://www.patrickcurry.co.uk/

izgledom mi "vuče", podsjeća na Boromira huh.gif,
barem u nekim crtama lica.

Edited by elrond - May 24 2017, 07:46 AM
 
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