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Aragorn-Elessar
Posted: Jun 16 2008, 06:12 PM 915147


don Quijote


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Sigurno je da nejdu na Mirogoj. bonk.gif

Za takve stvari se treba dosta znati o pvijesti i kulturi Međuzemlja i Arde.Ja isto znam iz Silmarilliona da vilenjačke duše idu u Mandosove dvore i daj jedini čovijek tamo bio Beren.
Za ljude (i patuljke) je Iluvatar darovao "dar"=smrt.Kada umru,odalze iz tih krugova svijeta na neko vječno prebivalište.Nisam sad siguran za to ali...
Da postoji LOTR vjera u Valare i Iluvatara vjeroajtno bih se tamo prebacio a ne na ove smiješne popovske fore o smaku svijeta,velikom potopu i sl.(kad smo kod Velikog potopa,svećenici su rekli i Biblija da je sve na svijetu nestalo pod morem a u dokentarcu o Champolionu je francuz otkrio hijeroglife iz tog razdoblja na kojima nije spomenut nikakav potop)

Long live Manwe!!Hip ip huzaaa
 
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Ellin
Posted: Jun 16 2008, 06:12 PM 915148


Ithilwen


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u mandosove dvore idu vilenjaci. yes.gif i tamo cekaju, i cekaju, i cekaju... i tu i tamo ih valari vrate tj. reinkarniraju, pa se oni opet secu po valinoru.
ljudi nakon smrti napustaju krugove svijeta i odlaze, ali gdje - ne zna se. unsure.gif
nije mi poznata sudbina patuljaka i ostalih rasa (npr. hobita), ne znam gdje njihove duse odlaze poslije smrti. unsure.gif
 
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Ellin
Posted: Jun 16 2008, 06:13 PM 915149


Ithilwen


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QUOTE (Aragorn-Elessar @ Jun 16 2008, 07:11 PM)
Ja isto znam iz Silmarilliona da vilenjačke duše idu u Mandosove dvore i daj jedini čovijek tamo bio Beren.

da, ali to je bilo samo vrlo kratkotrajno, luthien je odmah izmolila milost za njega i vratila se s njim u ME kao smrtnica. yes.gif
 
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Arroch
Posted: Jun 16 2008, 07:21 PM 915160


Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur


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E i to je sve što sam htio znati...A što se tice Mirogoja i njegove povezanosti s vilenjacima...u to se necu upuštat... smilie.gif Hvala lijepo na odgovorima smilie.gif
 
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Ereinion Elentirmo
Posted: Jun 16 2008, 07:40 PM 915162


Aure entuluva!


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Koliko ja znam patuljci misle da se na kraju "sretnu" s Auleom posto je on njihov tvorac.
A ovo za vilenjake, bas sam ja nedvano pitao takvo nesto za Finroda Felagunda jer kad je umro pisalo je da ponovno sece sa svojim ocem Finarfinom. Dakle iz toga se moze zakljucit da su ga Valari "vratili". Isto su tako vratili i Glorofindela sto je Elrond detaljnije objasnio u drugom topicu.
 
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elrond
Posted: Jun 17 2008, 02:06 PM 915407


Vala


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QUOTE (Ellin @ Jun 16 2008, 06:11 PM)

nije mi poznata sudbina patuljaka i ostalih rasa (npr. hobita), ne znam gdje njihove duse odlaze poslije smrti. unsure.gif

patuljci se regeneriraju preko svojih očeva (Durina...), sve boli, nedaće nestaju nakon regeneracije, zapisano u HOME XII.
 
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elrond
Posted: Jun 17 2008, 02:09 PM 915410


Vala


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QUOTE (Arroch @ Jun 16 2008, 03:07 PM)
Bez uvrede al jednostavnije je ovdje samo odgovorit na ono što sam pitao kratkim i jednostavnim odgovorima...Ono tamo je previše za čitat i apsolutno sam lijen to čitat i ne da mi se to čitat...Sorry... ph34r.gif

bez uvrede, ali apsolutno neću poticati ničiju lijenost spram čitanja.
hoćeš-nećeš, tvoja stvar, ali gotovo na pladnju ti nedam no.gif
drugi, tko voli nek izvoli ti odgovoriti, ali osobno, to bi bilo protiv svih moralnih vrijednota u koje vjerujem. yes.gif
 
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elrond
Posted: Jun 17 2008, 02:18 PM 915417


Vala


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The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this
privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the
spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end
of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then
lie in a tomb of his own body,(24) at rest, and there its
weariness
and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then
after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again.(25)

The second version is very much briefer, and on the question of
the 'rebirth' of the Fathers says only: '... the reappearance, at long
intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their
kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of

rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin
(say) to which at intervals his spirit would return. But the relations of
the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it
seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men.'

Patuljci vjeruju da se duhovi sedam očeva njihove rase vremenom ponovo rađaju među njihovom vrstom.
To je uočljivo u slučaju rase Dugobradih čiji se prvi predak zvao Durin i to ime se ponavlja u intervalima kod njegovih nasljednika, ali ne od drugih nego samo od onih koji su bili direktno u liniji nasljeđivanja od durina I.

Durin I, najstariji od Očeva,' probudio' se u Prvom Dobu (ubrzo nakon buđenja Ljudi), no u Drugom Dobu nekoliko drugih Durina se pojavilo kao kraljevi Dugobradih (Anfagrim). U Trećem Dobu Durin VI bio je ubijen od Balrogha 1980. Bilo je to proročanstvo patuljaka, kad je Durin Željezno Stopalo preuzeo kraljevstvo u Trećem dobu 2941 (poslije bitke Pet vojski) da će se u njegovoj direktnoj liniji pojaviti Durin VII, koji će biti zadnji. Ovi Durini patuljci sadržavali su sjećanja na svoje prošle živote kao kraljevi i nikad nisu bili kompletni obzirom da su nastavljali život kao jedan čovjek u više osoba. Kako vilenjaci o tome nisu saznali ne zna se vjerovatno im patuljci nisu rekli. Ali vilenjaci Valinora su čuli začudne bajke o patuljačkom porijeklu koje su Noldori donijeli u ME i tvrdili da ih je sam Aule naučio tome. To se može naći u mnogo malih sjoro beznačajnih stvari koje su uključene u bilješke ili Apendixe Silmarilliona no nisu dorečeni. Za sada je dovoljno da se sjetimo da je stvoritelj patuljačke rase bio Vala Aule.
Ovdje je kratka verzija legende stvaranja patuljaka koje je moj otac napisao: «Nije mjesto za kazivanje priče o Auleu i patuljcima.»(23)
Ukratko: Patuljci su dodali da je u to vrijeme Aule patuljcima dao privilegiju da se ralikuju od vilenjaka i humana : Duh svakog od očeva (kao npr. Durin, će na kraju duge linije života koje su dane patuljcima zaspati i tada ležati u grobu u njihovom vlastitom tjelu u miru i tada će njihove sve brige rane i nedaće biti odgnane. Tada će se nakon dugo godina uzdići i preuzeti svoje kraljevstvo.
Druga verzija je puno kraća te je o pitanju ponovnog rođenja očeva napisao samo:
«...ponovno pojavljivanje u dugim intervalima u osobi jednog od očeva patuljaka u liniji njihovih kraljeva specijalno durina—nije da ponovo on ustaje duhovno nego da se i sačuva tjelo kako bi se duh kralja Durina mogao vratiti u tjelesnoj formi. No odnos između patuljaka i Valara i posebno patuljaka prema Auleu je čisto drugačije prirode od odnosa između vilenjaka i ljudi.»
 
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Moontaylor
Posted: Jun 18 2008, 05:43 PM 915734


Warden of the wood

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Evo ga pitanje koje je Arien postavila u prvom postu.

Zasto vilenjacima ne raste brada i ako raste , kad im pocinje rasti ? puzzled.gif
 
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Meneldil
Posted: Jun 18 2008, 06:04 PM 915750


Perfection.


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Zašto im ne raste - zato što su drugaciji od ljudi eureka.gif
Kada pocne - znatno kasnije nego kod ljudi tongue.gif U trecem dobu života, u kojemu je za vrijeme radnje LOTR-a bio samo Círdan. Detaljnjije o tome ima i HOME-u, ali ne znam tocno gdje; prilicno je poznat dio, pa će možda neko lako nać citate sleep.gif
 
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Ereinion Elentirmo
Posted: Jun 18 2008, 06:53 PM 915776


Aure entuluva!


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Mislim da vilenjaci duze prolaze te faze zivota i da im treba jedno vrijeme da dodu do te faze u kojoj im brada pocinje rasti. Kod ljudi je to puno drugacije jer naravno da oni prolaze kroz jedanke faze bradaim nikad nebi stigla izrasti
 
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sholky
Posted: Jun 19 2008, 10:25 AM 915890


Maia


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QUOTE (Moontaylor @ Jun 18 2008, 06:43 PM)
Evo ga pitanje koje je Arien postavila u prvom postu.

Zasto vilenjacima ne raste brada i ako raste , kad im pocinje rasti ? puzzled.gif

Iz najcescih pitanja sa portala:

QUOTE
6. Zašto Cirdan ima bradu kad je drugi vilenjaci nemaju?

Očiti odgovor bi bio da to sto su vilenjaci besmrtni ne znači da ne mogu imati bradu. Međutim, postoji jedan mali dio teksta u 'Narodima Međuzemlja'; na stranicama 365. - 66. zapisano je:
"Vilenjaci nisu dobijali brade prije nego sto bi ušli u treći ciklus svog života. Nerdanelin otac je bio iznimka, budući da je tek ušao u drugi ciklus."
O ovim "životnim ciklusima", koliko ja znam, nigdje ništa drugo nije napisano, a i ovaj odlomak je napisan vjerojatno samo zato što je Cirdan bio iznimka. Ako su neki ljudi koji su bili potomci vilenjaka naslijedili neimanje brade, moguće je da nikad ne bi živjeli dovoljno dugo da uđu u taj treći ciklus života.



sleep.gif
 
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elrond
Posted: Jun 19 2008, 10:27 AM 915891


Vala


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QUOTE (Moontaylor @ Jun 18 2008, 05:43 PM)
Evo ga pitanje koje je Arien postavila u prvom postu.

Zasto vilenjacima ne raste brada i ako raste , kad im pocinje rasti ? puzzled.gif

c/p s ranijih rasprava...
Most of Tolkien's writings imply that Elves were generally beardless. This is stated clearly in a note written late in Tolkien's life which is summarized in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel" in "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in Unfinished Tales. In the note,
there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless).
At first glance, this would seem to settle the issue.
However, this ignores a crucial exception. In "The Grey Havens", when Cirdan the Shipwright greets Frodo and the Elves, we read "Very tall he was, and his beard was long". This canonical evidence makes it clear that some Elves do have beards. A very incomplete explanation of this apparent discrepancy appears in a note associated with "The Shibboleth of Feanor" which was published in the journal Vinyar Tengwar #41, which reads
Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father was exceptional, being only early in his second.
(Nerdanel was Feanor's wife.) No other mention of Elvish "cycles of life" is known. Even without a full understanding, however, this helps to reconcile these statements: Cirdan was one of the oldest Elves in Middle-earth and could easily be in his "third cycle of life", and humans descended from Elves might never live long enough to reach the bearded state.
"As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said 'All is now ready.'"
– The Lord of the Rings, The Grey Havens
Despite Tolkien's statements in The Hobbit that Elves (and Hobbits) have no beards, Círdan in fact has a beard, which appears to be an anomaly and a simple oversight. However, Tolkien later devised at least three "cycles of life" for Elves around 1960; Círdan had a beard because he was in his third cycle of life. (Mahtan, Nerdanel's father, had a beard in his second cycle of life, a rare phenomenon.) It is unclear what these cycles exactly are, since Tolkien left no notes further explaining this. Apparently, beards were the only sign of further natural physical ageing beyond maturity.
Nevertheless, Tolkien may have ultimately changed his mind about whether Elves had facial hair. As Christopher Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales, his father wrote in December 1972 or later that the Elvish strain in Men, such as Aragorn, was "observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended", since "it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless".[20] This would seemingly contradict the information above.
Elves sometimes appear to age under great stress. Círdan appeared to be aged himself, since he is described as looking old, save for the stars in his eyes; this may be due to all the sorrows he had seen and lived through since the First Age. Also, the people of Gwindor of Nargothrond had trouble recognizing him after his time as a prisoner of Morgoth.
 
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Moontaylor
Posted: Jun 20 2008, 01:11 PM 916294


Warden of the wood

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Hvala !! biggrin.gif
 
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saruman
Posted: Jul 14 2008, 11:00 PM 925104


The wizard


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QUOTE
Gandalf on the bridge of Khazad-dűm calls the Balrog "flame of Udűn" (Udűn being the Sindarin name of Morgoth's fortress Utumno).


Hm, jel to istina?

Cini se da je morijski balrogic pobjegao iz Utumna i sakrio se pod moriju, iako prije nje (ili ne)... tongue.gif A ocito je bio vazan Morgyev domaci s obzirom na titl "Flame of Utumno"?

 
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